Episode 13: How to Say No in Sales Conversations


Welcome to the show everyone. On this episode, we get to take a request for a topic from the field, which is very exciting. One of Clint’s friends reaches out to him about a topic and we talk about that. We talk about one of Clint’s current projects, for lack of a better term, and kind of how he had to make do with the best that he could out of the situation. Some things that I want you to take away from this episode. Whenever we’re digging into the topic, we talk a lot about going for the no and why it’s important and how to do it well, and how it’s not really part of most people’s comfort zones. And we talk about why it’s important. So listen for that, I hope you get a ton of value out of it. This is also our 9/11 episode. So if you’re a veteran, you’re listening, thank you so much for your service. We have some veterans up here on the panel, but can’t say enough good things about those guys. If you’re listening, you getting any value, please share it with someone else. Sales is hard enough. We don’t have to do it by yourself. You have a question? Or if you want to submit a topic, we’re on social media, everything is at Sales Throwdown or you can email pod@sales throwdown.com. Hope you enjoy the show.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the main event. In the D corner we have Clint The Cleaver Bigelow. In the I corner, we have Al The Gambler Daniel. In the S corner, we have Nan The Promoter Fallman. In the C corner, we have John Small Mountain Hill.

Let’s get ready to throwdown.

Welcome to the show everybody. Today to pull back the curtain a little bit. This will come out in a couple of weeks. But today is 9/11. And we have a couple of veterans sitting on the table, on the panel here.

75% of us.

75% for sure. Clint was a marine and active duty and served in Ramadi.

Yeah, yeah, a couple different theaters. After 9/11, definitely a motivator, right? Definitely something that opened my eyeballs to the worldwide scene of shit. Right. Had to get myself involved because as a high D, that’s what I do. Absolutely. Want to own the situation. Want to be the best on the market. Let’s go out there and let’s go. Let’s go get some ass. You know what I’m saying? Absolutely.

Thanks for doing that.

Yeah, thank you for your service. Al was active duty Navy. Back, maybe before Clint was born.

19, 1985 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. nothing going on. Yeah, just.

I mean, you still went, yes, sir. I joined in 2001 as a reservist, and was actually in my training on 9/11, which is actually also my birthday. So…

Which, if you haven’t put two and two together, it’s his birthday today.

It is my birthday today.

Happy birthday to John. Shout out.

Yeah. Small Mountain is a little bit older today. 39 years young. Looking glorious. Someone said I looked 32 today and I just took it as a win, I was like…

That was, that was me. And I was completely lying. You look old as shit bro.

Yeah, I hit I hit that mark, or somewhere around there. Because you do not look your age man, which is good.

That’s true. I have a baby face now. And I look closer to my age than I did to, even five or ten years ago. Right. So I’ve, working with Al aged me a little bit. So I look a little closer to my age.

There is 32 gray hairs on your head. And they’re all from the year working with Al. You know what? It’s funny because I worked with Al for like two days. Full head.

Yeah, yeah. You. You got the easy route, man and didn’t throw you to the wall.

I’m still working with Al, and Clairol is my friend.

We’re sponsored by them, by the way.

Exactly. Just kidding. But if you want to. So we actually have another story from the field. Clint and I were talking about this this morning. Do you want to catch us up on the topic? Because I think it’s really, really important.

Yeah. Well, me, let me set the scene a little bit. Being brought into a sales conversation way too late as a business development manager for a company. Right?

And so, so hold on. So for people who don’t know, right, Clint works in construction, and works with some pretty high level stuff. And you’re kind of the only guy who’s on this path in your company. Is that, is that, is that a fair assumption? I mean, stop me if I’m wrong.

No, that’s true. There, there are some times where, I think I’ve mentioned this, before that there’s ways to bring jobs into my own company without me knowing, one, and also without, without my approval, through general relationships, you know, your pipefitter or mill rider, an ironworker out there and you bring in a job and you give it to the, let’s say, the C-level guy, and he runs with it. That’s not going through the channels that I’ve set up, it’s not going through the process that I’ve that I run with everyday or approved, it goes around me. And in this scenario, that’s what happened. Somebody brought in a job, a connection. And it turned out to be a multi million dollar project. And I caught wind of it within my own company. And I know that sounds negative, that’s okay. We want people to, we want to encourage our, our team to go out there and find jobs. We don’t want to discourage people from bringing in revenue in. That’s, that’s crazy. We talked a lot about, you know, in our company, everybody’s a safety person. I truly believe that everybody is a safety person. But also everybody’s a salesperson. If you’re out there wearing your company name, you’re a sales representative for your company. And there’s nothing wrong with you, bringing in a job. I will tell you, if you’re listening to this, and you’re one of those guys that have the opportunity to bring a job in, most sales people aren’t just some, you know, job title, right? There’s processes. A good sales guy like myself has a process.

No, I like to reference.

I like it too.

I have, I mean, but John, you know, proofs in the pudding. Right? I, I run a process, I stick to my process, I do it for a reason.

I’m just mocking you a little bit.

I get it, but go fuck yourself.

I like that too.

So, but if you’re out there working in the in the field for a company and you come across a deal, don’t be scared to throw it to your sales team, because they, they should have a process to run this scenario through. Because let me tell you, one of the things that you might not know, if you’re not in a sales position, is that not every deal is a home run, not every deal is a win. There’s a reason that we have processes, there’s a reason that I put em through the ringer. I want to ask about their budget, is it approved, is there, is it, is it an actual project at all. Because a lot of times it’s not, it’s an idea on a cocktail napkin, right. And a lot of things start that way. One of the things that a good salesperson, or a good business development manager, with some training in a process will do, is they will weed all those things out. Right. So they will talk about, and it’s hard truth. Hey, look, is this a cocktail napkin idea? Or is this a real project that we’re going to do starting next week. Those are two very different scenarios. So in this situation, it was a real deal. It didn’t come through me, it went around me. And that’s okay, I’m not worried about that. I’m not scared about that. However, we’re now we’re investing a lot of estimating time. Management time, people are taking time out of their day to work on this, that costs money, right? Then in flex and overhead. And overhead costs money, right? It’s not free. Nothing we do, every conversation that we have, you can put a dollar amount to. I believe that, really do. So if you have a lot of conversations, and you’re starting to do work, and you’re starting to take off and you’re estimating the job, I don’t care whether you sell widgets or you, you’re, you’re in construction, or health care doesn’t matter, every time you have conversation, you’re, you’re starting to rack up on the dollar side. And sometimes we do things for free, I don’t encourage it. Sometimes you just got to provide a little value to get them on the hook, I get that. In this situation, we’re getting a little far down the line where it’s like, Okay, now we’re really investing some money. I haven’t been involved yet. I don’t even know if this deal is really going to happen. They’ve asked us to bring an entire team out of state to their, you know, to their branch office and and explain our cost. No idea what we’re talking about.

And so are you hearing about this deal and this job, kind of like in the hallway? But ike, no one’s really bringing it to you?

Yeah, word of mouth, through the, you know, I say the rumor mill, you know, in the Marine Corps, we call it the Lance Corporal underground.

Barracks lawyers.

Exactly. So you’re kind of, you’re kind of hearing some things like, you know, you want to blow up as a high D, I want to blow the whole room up and just say, why has nobody brought this to me, like how many times I have to explain that I’m here for a reason? And that’s my natural state. But know when to make, to make something push forward, check that ego, check that big D ego and put in the backseat and go in? And how can I provide value? Right? Not only How can I provide value to my customer, but how can I provide value to my team? Because if they’ve got the lead, look at this is a segue here. If somebody on your team that’s not a salesman has a lead people trust that guy. Sell with him, agree, do not take that sale away from that guy, sell it with him. Sure. Because if you’re truly about your company, name and product, and you’re truly about the greater good of what you do, you will sell with him, and he will give him all the tools he needs to move forward and move the process forward.

And to add to that is, you now begin the management phase of, sure, you know, because…

That’s right, Doc, I think that’s a great point is that you have to take yourself out of Am I going to get this commission? Am I not? Because that’s, that’s a moot point. Get your, get your head out of that game. If you’re truly a good sales guy, and you truly care about what your company does. Commissions are the last thing,

Man that, they’ll follow good work. And good leadership.

Good companies take care good, they take great care.

And if you’re working for a crappy company, get out of there, quit.

Quit. Get out of there.

There’s too many sales role out there.

I’m going to tell you right now that if you go on Indeed.com or jobs, monster jobs, or whatever, the highest searched role is probably sales, outside sales rep. Right? So if you think you’re stuck in a role that you can’t get out of, you’re wrong, man. Go, go find a valued company. The point driving this point home is that don’t, use your team, you know, you may not be the guy sitting in the room negotiating the deal. Make sure your team has the tools that you know how to do. And that’s the situation that we’re talking about. That’s something that I had to do is realize that I don’t have the relationships with the customer. These guys do. They’re on my team, I want to see these guys win, I want to see my team win. Yeah, I know a few more steps than they know because I do this for a living every day. They don’t. They’re project managers, they’re superintendents, they’re vice presidents of operations. I know some ins and outs that they need to know. It would be foolish of me, and as a high D, if you’re listening out there, this is going to be tough for you to hear. Check your stupid ass ego, because it doesn’t mean anything. It will only harm the situation, right? Check that ego, get in front of your team and say these are the tools, these are the questions I think you need to ask. Let’s role play it a little bit. Here’s what I think could happen. And if it does happen this way, here’s your response. And you give them all the tools that you need, and then you go support them. For sure. So, so in this situation, we flew out of state, we went as a team, I provided very little value the entire job, you know, the entire scope review. But what I realized was knowing, knowing sales, knowing DISC, I realized across the table that these guys commuted in a certain style, communicated in a certain style, their body language read a certain way, their tonality read a certain way. They talked about, they hit a lot of things. And if you, if you do this correctly, you will have a notebook in front of you. And when they mentioned big buzzwords, you write that buzzword down, and you start putting stars or checkmark next to it, and when they hit that buzzword two or three or four times, that’s you’re talking point, right?

Yeah, give an example of a buzzword.

Okay, be more specific.

So for example, in this situation, and I’m going to keep this pretty vague, not to go into too many, of course, details on specific jobs. But one of the one of the guys said, you know, in our 3d model, we showed this. So I just happened to write 3d model. About a sentence later, he said, you know, what I didn’t see in a 3d model was this. Oh, 3d model, check. Right, I put a star next to it. You know, three or four seconds later, what I’m really looking for is in the 3d model, ba, ba, ba boom. Okay, that’s two stars. Now we’re hitting on points. So in that, let’s plug my computer in. I’ve got 3d models for days. That’s how we do our take off. Right, we do all of our estimating in 3d. You can cruise through it. It’s a beautiful thing. Yeah.

Real quick, because I’m not in your industry, what does take off mean?

Okay, so, if you, if somebody said they want to run a new pipe from point A to point B, take off would be what does it take to get me from point A to point B? Okay, how many feet of pipe, how many fittings? How many fixtures? The works, right? That’s a lot more complicated than that. But that’s a simply, simple way to put it. So when you got these guys, we happen to do all that in 3d. So when we draw it up, we actually draw in 3d. That’s how our software works. A lot of people are like that anymore. It’s 2019. Most people are adapting to that. So when I heard that for the about the third time, let’s put that up on the screen. Let’s talk through 3d models. And so what happened was is “hey man, you uh, your prices are really high. And our team talk through that, you know, your prices, you’re the third highest out of three.

So they’re, they’re asking, they’re telling you that you’re the highest?

You’re the highest. I, we’re really trying to do a scope review to make sure everybody’s apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. And I kind of set in the cut a little bit. And, and look, I’m not telling you that I’m a genius. But sometimes silence is beautiful. Yeah, absolutely. Nan, you said this so important. You know, you said this a couple times that you’re you’re a master to your spoken and unspoken words, right?

You’re a master of your unspoken word.

And a slave.

And a slave to your spoken word.

Perfect. So in this situation, that’s, that’s kind of where I was sitting in the cut kind of thinking, I don’t have a lot of value to add here. Because I don’t know much about it. What I do know is that they’ve communicated this way with me. They are this DISC style, all of them. And I’ve got a table full of people that aren’t that DISC style. So our communication is way off.

So be specific, what DISC were they?

So I’ve got a bunch of I’ve got three C’s, talking to a bunch of us and we’re all high Ds. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it’s tough, right? It’s very tough. So if you know anything about DISC, that’s, that’s a real, that’s across the spectrum. Yeah. That’s tough to do. Luckily, for me, I have knowledge of things that I can dig into, and say, Okay, well, I’m a super high D, and I don’t communicate this way. But I’m recognizing all those traits. And I’m writing down buzzwords, I’m writing down communication styles. I’m also seeing body language and tonality and how they present themselves, are they kicked back in their chair. Are they leaning forward on a conference table?

So what I’m hearing, sorry to interrupt you. So what I’m hearing is you’ve gone the extra mile to verify what is going to make this work? Yes, I wish that you I would like to ask you too, as you were saying the C, the I, and the D and that, you know, can you explain it a little more in detail for the listeners?

Sure. So I’m explaining a project to well, we as a team are explaining that project to a team of high C’s, meaning very analytical, right? They’re very itemized punch list type of guys, where they want to see spreadsheets? They’re John? Yeah, guys like me. They’re John. But not self aware John? Yeah. Right. So there’s, they want the facts, you want the facts, you want the price points for each thing, if I take away this pump, what do I save? Well, that’s tough, because it’s not just the pump, its supervision, its overhead, it’s all it is a lot more complicated than that. If you take out the pump for my scope, well, then the whole scope adjusts. Right, it’s not just one price point, I can’t give it to you on the spot, because I don’t know, we’ll have to run the recap, again, we’re gonna have to re estimate this job, because you changed it. And I don’t mean that to scare anybody out there. But truely, if you change the scope, no matter what industry you’re in, the pricing is just not going to be the same. How you figure that is on your, your company. In this situation, I was dealing with a very, very tough group of C’s that wanted facts, facts, facts. The thing that I recognize then is that they, they’re visual people, they, not all C’s are visual, but these guys were. They’re very visual, and the fact that they said 3d model three or four times I want to see that 3d model, I want to see what you’re doing, I want to see it, see it, see it. And when you talk in those words of visualization, I’m going to give you a proposal in that realm. You have to, if you want to communicate with these guys professionally, now I’m giving you, I’m giving you feedback, in your words. Not my words, in your words. You wanted to see this, giving it to you. Here’s my 3d model, here’s what I, here’s what I’m showing in our computer program, that, that solves what you’re asking. But it makes them feel comfortable. And, and I’m not pulling a game, I’m not running manipulation, I’m not doing anything, I’m just running the game that they want to play, recognizing the game that they’re in, recognizing the language, the body, tonality, the buzzwords, and I’m playing within that realm. And if you’re not doing that, as a salesperson, if you’re not recognizing all those things, you’re fishing, you’re out there just literally fishing in a river that might not have any fish. I mean, truly.

So what, so what ended up happening?

So what, yeah, we’ve been going on about this. Sorry.

Well, it’s important. You know…

It’s good information.

…stuff is going to come out of left field, and I have a follow up after you talk about what happened.

Okay. So one of the things that ended up happening is, is we went through about a 45 minute meeting, we all had great talking points. My team did a fantastic job, by the way. No, no downplaying it. Because they did a fantastic job with the information that they had. We went into it, they explained a lot of facts, a lot of savings. Here’s what I would do in this situation, you’re running this kind, we would do this kind, from our experience this, so a lot of third party stories, right? We’re really gaining value and a lot of trust. And one of the things that I heard them say was, well, you guys are a big firm. I’m assuming that costs a lot of money. And I could have answered that. Our team can answer that a lot of ways. It was, it was a si-, it was an awkward silence when they said that.

And it’s not even really a question.

It’s not a question, but you feel like you have to answer it as a salesperson. Because there’s a silence after that. Right? And when there’s silence after a statement, oftentimes we view that as a question for sure. And you feel that you have to answer with this profound, intellectual answer. And a lot of times you just, you just don’t have to sometimes. What I really, and I kind of watched the room of man, this is getting awkward. And I just happened to say, look is if you think that we’re the big firm, I agree with you. So kind of a gut punch there of like, you said it, not me. Right? You said we’re the big firm? I didn’t say that. And I’m agreeing with you of what you said. So you guys said we’re the big firm, I agree with you. Where I think we provide the value is that don’t break this job up into parts? Give us the whole thing. Right? So do you think there’ll be savings, so they have no doubt, there will be savings there. Because instead of bidding this job 10 different ways to 10 different people in 10 different sections, you’re splitting it out one way to one people, one overhead, one markup, one cost, we can do this. We’ve already told you we can do that. And so today, we got an email that said, Hey, bid the whole project, see where you come. So now you’re talking about taking a $4 million loss, right? Because that’s what it was, when you walk in the room, you have the third highest, there’s no chance you’re going to get this job. You can build all the bonding, rapport and trust and blah, blah, blah. But if these guys are high C’s, and all they care about is costs and line items. You don’t stand a freakin chance, not a chance if you’re the third highest because they have two better options that are also telling them that they can do the same thing you can do for less cost. Right? So now the value is. Maybe it’s an upsell. I would classify it as that. The upsell is that they can’t do the big project. I can. But I got to have a company that can do that. Right? I can only sell what I know I can do. Of course Yeah. of, you know, fortunately, in this situation I can. And there’s another company at the table that can also do that. But did they do that? The answer is they didn’t. I know that. Because I I’m good at digging for information. Right called around how did they do the interview? Oh, well, they said all the right things. And they threw out all the right things. But they didn’t grow the situation.

So they didn’t go after the whole enchilada.

They went after selling the $4 million, and I went after selling the $10 million. So now we got an opportunity to win the $10 million.


And I might lose both don’t. Just so we know that.

It’s not a silver bullet, but…

It’s not. But I wasn’t gonna win the 4 million, my chances of winning the 4 million were less than 10%. My chances of winning the 10 million? 60, I upped my chances. That’s all we’re trying to do here.

So does Clint, before he becomes self aware and really does all the work that you’ve done? Do you, do you treat that situation differently? Yeah, right. Do you do you say screw the team, screw these guys, screw you for going around me? This is my space and like….

Yeah, you’re 100%. Self awareness has shown me, if this would have happened two years ago, if I would have heard all these things going on down the hallway, as a high D, I said F you guys, you don’t want me, you don’t get me. Period.

That’s a huge move for you.

And, and somebody would have said, Clint, we need you on this business. You know, fuck you, I got another job to look at. Sorry, I’m busy. My schedule is full. I’d’ve made some reason not to be there. Because I wouldn’t want, as a unaware, stupid, ignorant self, you know, high D, I want you to realize that I’m, I’m the reason that you lost.

You’re going for the no in your own company?

I’m going for the no in my own company and what value does that provide? Right?

I mean, absolutely none, right.

Yeah, cut your nose off to spite your face.

So I know that’s easy to say, harder to provide, you know, to get to where, and I’m not fully there. I’m learning things of what am I here for. I’m here to provide value, I was hired to do a job. And that job was to increase the value, it was in, increase sales, increase bottom line. That’s what I was hired for. And if I take my, step out of my ego, and I look at what I was hired for, and what I’m getting paid for, that task becomes a lot easier. But look, guys, two years of punching myself in the face in the mirror. I mean, seriously, I mean, and we’re all up there, right? No matter, D, I, S, and C, we’ve all done this, it’s why we’re sitting here. We’ve all punched yourself in the face. But we’ve all gotten some clarity of who we are. And more so than who we are. What’s our weakness? Right? My weakness is the same as my strength. I can cut you off, or I can join your team. Just as quick, right? What value does it does it add to my life or the company’s value to cut you out? Quickly? The answer is little. But if I join your team, I provide value from the back, backstage. You know, coach you, let you run with it, give you all the tools that I know how to do, we all win.

Do you think that that’s being self aware? Do you think that that’s being a good leader? Do you think it’s? Or maybe those aren’t mutually exclusive?

And maybe, John, I don’t, I don’t know. I can tell you this, that if I’d have been in the Marine Corps, and I had the attitude of go fuck yourself, this is just me. I wouldn’t have made it. I wouldn’t have trust. I wouldn’t have people that I’m still talking to 10, 12 years later that if if they picked up the phone and called me right now, I, I’d dropp this podcast in a minute to go help them out. Those are the relationships you develop because it’s about the team. Right? It’s about the future push of what we can develop into. So yeah, high D’s that haven’t been through life and death situations. Yeah, little self centered, right, ego’s big, one a win win win, and you’re going to burn a lot of bridges. But the same time, guys, you have great fucking tools to get great things done. If you check your ego. You take the I out of it, because there’s, it’s a stupid phrase. Not…

Not this I. Quit hating on me man.

Yeah, I’m not talking about the DISC guy. But I am talking about, you know, it’s a stupid, it’s a stupid saying but there’s no I in team and literally, there’s no fucking I in team. You can’t put it in there. It doesn’t make sense, right? If you’re truly about what you say you are, you gotta support the team, you got to push them. And D’s have a great, great traits to push teams.

Yeah, you guys naturally get in that position and do a good job for the most part in my experience.

Sure. And you know, there’s no better person to push you through a situation and help you believe that what you’re doing is great, then a really high corner D, but he has to get rid of him. Yeah, right. He has to get rid of I. And that’s tough. That is tough.

Super hard.

Encourage and not impress.

I don’t think that that’s just strictly even a D thing.

Yes. Sometimes it’s not, right.

Because it’s hard for me.

Yeah, I was gonna say a high C man. Even a high I. Yeah, a high I is all about himself.

S’s do it naturally. Just, right. And so I, I’m trying to think about how Nan would handle that situation, right. You know, if, if she’s the salesperson in the company in a deal gets brought in, and it’s not shipped to her and it doesn’t get to run her process? You know?

Well, I think it’s really important to focus on my strengths, and find people that can cover my weaknesses. So I think the team works. Such a great….

Yeah, I know, that took up a lot of time in your ears. But I think there’s a lot of value of Don’t, don’t feel pressured to make every sale as a salesperson.

Well, and don’t have a knee jerk reaction to something you don’t like, right? Figure out how you can use that situation. Either melted together, or divided apart and then use each one of those parts. Yeah.

Good point.

So thanks for sharing. Yeah, sorry. I know

Yeah, sorry, I know that took a minute.

I mean, here’s the deal. Like, like, we’re still out there grinding, grinding, right, and we don’t get it right 100% of the time. So this is just a glimpse.

For that one success story that took 25, 30 minutes, I could tell ya hours of failures. I could, and we and we’re going to dive in. Yeah, there’s not doubt.

So let’s transition a little bit, right, because we actually have something pretty exciting. Yeah, we have a request from a, from a listener. Yeah. So Clint?

Yeah. So, so a cool cat named Brian. Right from, he’s a, he’s a, works for a company called Farmer State Bank, out of Illinois, I believe. I talked to him on the phone today. Really, really insightful. So we had a conversation. And just so you know, out there listening, that if you have these topics, what I’m about to mention, you’re more than welcome amongst us four to comment to us to reach out to us. Like he reached out and asked some first personal information, he gave it to me, we, we talked on the phone for quite a while today. What I want to say is that he provided me as much value as I provided him. I think it was a very mutual transaction. Right. I was talking about different situations, and we’re completely in different industries. You know, he’s a loan officer for a bank that sells to, you know, a lot of Midwest farmers, right, getting loans further equipment, their crops, their land, right.

We love farmers.

So, yeah, sure. I mean, I grew up in that world.

I was gonna say, you have a point of reference. So so it wasn’t like, it wasn’t like didn’t understand who his audience was.

So I get it. I, we had a lot of jokes back and forth of like, you want me to understand the personality of my grain buyer? Does dickhead count? You know these, these are good old boys we’re talking about and maybe that’s, but you got to know your audience. Right. You got to understand their audience.

Is he a D as well?

No, you know, Brian is probably, you know, talking to him a little bit. Brian is probably on the I/S scale.

It’s time for Brian to take the test.

Yeah. Call in Brian, let us know what you are.

Yeah, I’ll help you out. But he’s, he’s a pretty friendly guy, likes to talk, likes that center of attention kind of guy. But he also cares about people.

Interesting. So what was this question?

His question was is, it wasn’t even a question. It was a statement. So I’ll kind of refute that a bit. His statement to me was, I deal with a lot of people to drag me out. Right? They dragged me through the ringer. I go for the no. And I’m quoting him, I go for the no a lot of times, a lot of times it’s tough, especially as an I/S right. Especially as a people loving person. For a CD. That’s not so. So difficult, right? Because we’re going to go from that right off the bat. For for somebody that really likes the morality of people and really wants to get to know you, it’s really tough for them to understand. Well, I can’t just dump it. Right, even though that they’ve given me they’ve given me 10 signs that say that there’s no deal here, there’s no money, there’s no I don’t have a need, I don’t have any pain for this. They drag you along for maybe months on end, maybe years on end, and how do you, how do you just strategize, to get in there and to say, Look, man, you don’t need me, I don’t need you. This isn’t a fit, boom, done. You know, really taken ownership on the no. Right, and moving on to another customer. So that was a statement to me, was, hey Clint, I deal with this a lot. It’s something that I’ve been working on and get better at every day, is really getting in there and and just realizing that this isn’t a win situation. There’s nothing I can do. They don’t have any pain. They don’t need me. They’re happy with their bank for 30 years. I’m out. But the cool point about that is if you know, Brian, I know you’re listening, but everybody out there, that’s in your situation. The cool part about that is, is it now you get the focus your, you know, your, your passion, your potential, your process on somebody that actually has a yes. Right. Absolutely. So now you’re getting rid of time, money, resources, you’re, you know, you’re diverting that into something that could actually win.

But but as a high D though, right, you specifically have no problem cutting someone off?

Probably too quick sometimes.

Yeah, so, you’re not the poster child. I’m curious to hear from Al because if you say that he’s an I/S?

Yeah. Right. So to be honest with you, before we dig into that, you know, my advice to Brian, and Brian’s advice to me was completely different. Because we’re opposite end of the spectrum, for sure. My my advice is, wow, what are you even talking about? You’re wasting more money talking about this problem. Get, dump this motherfucker, who cares? Right? Who cares? Go find another one. And his point is, is that I’m not in a good market, like you are. I’m not out there where there’s a bazillion people begging for my business. I’m in the middle of a cornfield. There’s five or six farmers that need my business and I need them. Right. So how do I provide value? But when there’s not value there? How do I own that no?

Oh, well, just jumping in here. If there’s not a next step, if you can’t get on the calendar with a real topic, then you’re having a conversation. There’s nothing wrong with having conversations other than you only have so much time on this earth, right? And you’re using your time, probably not in the best ways. But if I look at somebody like that, and I say, Clint, I completely understand, sounds like this isn’t a fit for you here and now. But tell me when you do make these decisions? How often do they come up? You know, take it away, but then ask a leading question going back at them about when they do decide to make a purchase or need some money.

Okay, so are you able to do that well, because you are able to move to that D? So, smoothly.

So I keep it in I? Keep your personality.

I think those that’s a pretty high I. But I also think that has to do with trust. Right? So you can’t have that conversation without building rapport? Oh, sure.

Yeah, I mean, if you’re at the point where you’re being dragged outside of your normal selling cycle.

But the point of it is, is a lot of these guys don’t know that, right? So if you’re walking into a cold call situation, you’re trying to have the conversation that Doc’s having, and you haven’t built trust, you haven’t built integrity, and you haven’t built these things. That conversation goes two different ways very drastically. I agree.

But you’re going to know that right? You’re going to get your ass tossed out. And it’s just, it’s going to be a lose. Right. But you got your no, and you move on, also.

So Doc, to kind of challenge a little bit on that, is that I think a lot of people are not self aware. I think a lot of people don’t know that they’re doing what you just said, I think that they don’t realize the situation that they’re losing. And when they go back and recap, they think I did everything right.

But let me interrupt you only because that’s a generality. But if you pose a specific question back to, I mean, you know your business well. Sure. You know, I have a surgeon and he has, I got some bonding and rapport with him. And I’m trying to pose that he use a new product. And I know it’s in his wheelhouse. I’ve done my homework, I’ve gotten online, I’ve been in a hospital, I’ve seen him using this with other other vendors. And I want to kind of make that approach. And I say, Hey, Doc, you know, I know you do this, and I know you use these particular products. Let me ask you, would you be up for taking a look at what I have in my bag? And he says, you know, Al, I’m really kind of covered up right now. I’m committed to where I’m at, then then my next question would be well, when you have an issue that you’re not completely committed to, could we have a conversation about that? Would it make sense to then have… So I got a, I got a flat ass no. And I don’t have a workaround for it.

One of the things that I’m gonna, Nan, I’m going to commend, commend you on is that being a high S, you get down to kind of the, I’ll call the nitty gritty of feelings and emotions, right. So if you’re one bank out of three, in 100 mile radius in the middle of a cornfield, and people need you, right, and Brian’s situation, for example, one of the things that an S is going to do really well that a D won’t is you’re going to listen and understand. You’re going to pick up on a lot of buzzwords, right? Passion, loyalty, been in the business for 150 years, it’s my last name on it. How am I going to trust my last name, because I grew up in this, I understand this fully. How am I going to put my last name on a check written from you. And it’s tough. It’s tough. And, and that may not mean a lot to somebody living in LA. But it means a lot to somebody in the Bible Belt, or living in the Midwest growing corn for living, struggling, barely making payments, they need a loan to buy a new tractor. These are very different universes, right? But what you can pick up on both sides. In an S, if you’re an S or an I out there, what you’ll do naturally is you’ll pick up on commonalities, pick up on suggestive language, which family name, passion, what’s important, what’s important, right? As a C/D, you gotta. But right here as a CD, which you have to realize, if you’re in that situation, if you’re in Brian’s situation, and you’re a high C or D, one of the things that you can’t do is bring your ego into that because they truly have passion about what they’re saying, and you have to listen. Yeah, and facts and money go out the window for a second. Right? You gotta always got to come back to that. Because there’s a hard truth of making a sales at there’s got to be facts and money. You always got to come back to that. But you’ve got to soften the blow little bit. You can’t be so dominant and so deliberate. And so in your face, that’s something that an I and an S does really well is they accept all that language and they use commonalities. For sure you use common language, D’s and C’s are very bad about that. Because we don’t care about people, we care about task. Absolutely. So pick up on the buzzwords, write it down in a notebook, use common language, you talk about family, I’m going to talk about family, you talk about buzzwords, I’m going to talk about the same buzzwords, you talk about passion, let’s talk about passion. That doesn’t come naturally for C’s and D’s. You got to make it, you got to make it natural. That’s training. That’s self awareness. That’s understanding who you are. Guys, it’s not easy. It’s a struggle. I struggle with it every fucking day. But we’re getting better. Right? We’re increasing odds.

So let’s, so let’s back up a little bit. That was deep. Sorry. Yeah, no, no, it’s very deep. Right. I think the thing we’re talking about is going for the no, when to cut someone off, how to do that. Things like that. Brian, you know, there’s so many, like phrases that we’ve all heard and read and, you know, you know, but you got to be able to say no to people, right? You can’t, because, you know, one of one of the most important things is like hope is not a sales strategy. Right? It’s not a sales strategy, right? So if you’re, you know, once you’ve done about four or five deals, you have a pretty good idea about like, what that selling cycle looks like. So anything that’s dragging you outside of that thing, your your, your hackles should be up. And you should be questioning about that and trying to figure out what’s going on.

I think it’s real important that you be able to challenge your prospect, particularly if they give you their ideology, or what their thoughts are on a particular project.

That’s a good point, Doc.

And ask them probing, I mean, real solid questions about their mindset relative to the process that you’re going through. Great idea, why that?

That’s funny, because that’s not, if you’re listening out there, and you you resonate with Doc or Nan here, that’s not natural to your style.

For sure. That’s a learned ability.

That’s a learned ability.

And it’s a nut sack.

So that’s something to put yourself out there.

Because the guy could….

I don’t, I don’t mean to bust your balls. That’s something that me and John do right off the bat. We question you until you’re uncomfortable. That’s the unnatural side of what we do.

Right? So that’s where an I can win though, right? Because we’re already comfortable when I, you even like smile and do your normal stuff and you’re like…

There’s no better person on this table to ask a hard question, in my opinion, then I, because you’ve already established a lot of bonding, or you’ve already established a lot of common language. And now you’re, you’re buddy buddies, you’re golfing on the 9th tee, and you say, Hey, bro, you don’t have that budget. What are you even talking about?

I mean, well, but you make it, you make it sort of laughable situation, you kinda become the clown and go…

But if you’re not a, but if you’re not an I, right? That’s uncomfortable.

And you’re an S

You’re an S, right? That’s uncomfortable.

Because I’m going to argue with you a little bit because I think the person who can ask the hardest questions is the S.

Absolutely, I was about to say the same thing.

But here’s the deal…

She’s the least threatening. It’s not even under your radar.

It’s not even about the level of threat, it’s just her concern for the overriding situation.

That’s what I said, you just fall into she cares about them.

But once again, it, I think i think asking harder questions is a little bit easier for an I than it is for an S. So, but that being said, it when an S asks a hard question, it means a ton, it means, it means so much more. But once again, you gotta get out of your comfort zone.

It’s genuine.

For sure, and it’ll make you take a pause because Nan’s asked me stuff. And I’m like, Okay, good point. But I’m like, yeah.

As a high D, we’re a small portion of the population. I, I take more notes, listening to Nan’s thoughts than I do anybody else? Because it’s so opposite of what I naturally do, right? But the thing is, with the high S, if you’re out there in a sales role, that’s tough. But also, they truly give a shit. Yeah, they truly do. They care about the future of the family business.

You do too, but you care about the quality of the job that you’re going to do and being able to meet expectations,

But I’m task-oriented, Doc, so my…

Absolutely, and that has value as well. It does, you can’t get away from that.

If you’re going to hire a guy to get things done. Cutthroat, nobody gives a shit what you do, burn as many bridges you want to get to the end game, I’m your guy. If you want me to care, and truly buy into your values, and I’m not saying that I don’t buy into that. I’m just saying that naturally in my style. If you want somebody to truly care about you as a human being, care about your values and your family, an S is that person.

But what you’ve shown us tonight, is how you’ve grown into and that’s what we really are trying to show, how important it is.

I don’t want to lose my dominance in a sales conversation. I don’t want to lose the fact that I’m going to ask hard questions. What I want to do is adapt a style that’s comfortable with the person across from me.

It makes them feel engaged.

So if they’re a high S and they talk about family values, and they talk about their family farm going under, and, and getting, you know, to where we can’t survive anymore. I’m gonna have to sell out. That’s my language.

But right. I can also tell you Nan comes upscale too, because we’ve had some projects where Nan has to go in and say, what is it that you’re not understanding? In her nice way, but that’s a direct question. Because, I mean, she’s got a million dollar account that we just had a little bit of an issue with, and she finally broke it down into an explain… And it wasn’t Nan’s issue. It was just people making money. And I mean, speak to that, Nan.

Well, I just, what, it could have been a failure, I think it’s really important, you know, that you have to identify what is going on? Because clearly, we had no idea what was going on. But it wasn’t something that I wanted to say no to. And I think it was really a valuable lesson. And that’s what all failures are. This was not a failure. But I think it’s really important to not be afraid of failure or the no or, but identify just what, just exactly what Clint was, has talked about the entire….

Look, guys. I feel bad about.

But that’s not part of the normal S tool kit. Right? You don’t you don’t walk in the door off the street being able to be like, I’m okay asking you a hard, hard ass question. Because that’s viewed as conflict. Right?

Butl she was forced into it.

It was steps too, it wasn’t a one day? I think it’s…

So let me ask you a tough question, Nan. Before you’re self aware… why?

I didn’t ask for permission. So permission is for the weak. Nan, as a high S, you know, direct confrontation, conflict is not your, it’s not where you want to be. And I’m not saying you personally, because you’re self aware, right? You’ve grown. I’m saying for a lot of people out there. And as we know, somebody, we all four know somebody that’s a super high S, that we know very well, that would avoid conflict at all, you would run would run from it. You’ve obviously grown into the fact that you’re not scared to do it, because you have reasons, right? You have a point to make. Your value, your true reason for asking is different than me. I’m gonna, I’m gonna shoot for the know, because I want to move on. You want to shoot for the know, because you care. And you want to show the value of that they, they really don’t have an option, right? Like this isn’t realistic. That’s very different from an S to a D.

But I think you hit on something. If Nan’s shooting for the no, I think from an S’s standpoint, she really genuinely thinks it’s not a good fit.

That’s what I’m saying.

She’s trying to tell you…

You’re explaining this a lot better than I am.

I don’t think I really fit. That’s right. And it’s not from a weakness standpoint. She’s looking out for their interest more than they are. And it’s not that you… It almost works again, because they’re like, no, wait a second, we can work around this. And so I’ve seen people try to work with Nan, when she’s trying to tell them no.

There is no better reverse in the book. It does, there’s no better reverse in the book to you probably don’t need me. I don’t think that I can add value. You tell me how I can add value. But that’s really hard for me to do.

But here’s the, here’s the sweet spot, because I’ve seen this work. But then she stops and lets them start, the minute their mouth starts to move. She gets quiet and they go, well I don’t know why you would say that because of this, this and they start to sell themselves in her arena. By just sitting back, being polite. But, but using the right words of probably not a good fit. Yeah. Yeah. And they just fall into it. I mean, it’s it’s a soft couch, they feel like they can sit on for sure.

You know, I know we’re getting down to our throwdown time here. And going back to, man, it feels like two hours ago. Sorry, guys, definitely not, I hope you got some value out of it. But to go back to, you know, Brian’s original statement of, you know, something that he has to do a lot is people just don’t have the money for what they’re wanting to do. Right? I don’t know if that’s exactly how we put it. But I think for a lot of us, we all understand that value of we go into a situation, people want, you know, to build this fantastic fantasy. But the realistic side of it is that you just can’t. Right? And how do you bring that up to, without shutting people down and breaking their spirit? How do you bring that up to the surface and say, Look, guys, that’s really not possible.

It’s just not the right time maybe.

Well but I also think that that’s when you become a consultant, you’re, you’re really working for them, even though it’s not a deal that you can do. But, but you’re saying the timeframe doesn’t work. But I think if you did this, this and this, we could be there, you know, in six months, particularly if you’re in a longer game, or you say, Doctor, I don’t really know that this product works for you. I know somebody that may, you know, have the answer what you Sure. So you divert, or you work them into a different angle.

Look, I think one of your biggest…

Cut off by the bell.

Shut down.

It’s throwdown time, you get to make your point anyway, because you get to go first, right. We’re talking about going for the no, cutting people off.

Look, it’s easy for Team P to do that behind the glass.

Damn the producer.

Team P.

Look, you know, getting to the no, as a, going to speak to the high D, you know, as a throwdown here. Getting to the no is easy for you. It truly is, you’re going to ask a lot of direct questions because you’re not scared of it. You don’t care whether, you truly don’t. If you’re an unaware person, you truly don’t give a shit, a rat’s ass, whether these people do business with you, because that’s the way you view it right? You’re doing business with me not the other way around. That’s a very high D statement. I challenge you a little bit, not a little bit, a lot of bit. Dig into the finer details of why they want to do this in the first place. Figure out the value of what it is. And if you can really dig into those questioning strategies of why they want to do it. I think your conversation about budget and money. And whether this is a realistic project or not, comes a lot easier, because they’re going to recognize value, and they’re going to recognize something in themselves and you. If you can’t do that, it’s going to be really hard for you to move forward when somebody doesn’t have the money. But the thing is, guys, is that not all sales are today, some of the value that you provide today might be, might grow into a tree that grows fruit, nine months from now, two years from now, right, because of the value that you provide. And don’t forget that people that don’t have your process might make mistakes. And that might lead them back to you. Because you provided value and you let everybody else make mistakes and be patient. Patience is is important here as a, as a high D because you want to, you want to gut check it, you want to make a gut feel, and you want to just say I got this, I’ll take care of you. But if you really can’t, be honest, you know, have some feelings, have some emotion, dig down on their side, check your egos. And we talk a lot about our strengths, are bigness, biggest weakness. Don’t, don’t get rid of your dominance, because that’s going to get you to ask hard questions, but have some emotion.

All right. Al, what you got for the I?

From the I’s standpoint? Go for that no. And if you get it, segue into, hey, I understand this wasn’t a fit today. But I really want to be a value in your process going forward and the things that you’re doing? Would it be okay if I came in front of you? Or could we, you know, and you keep that open door policy, I guess is where I’m going. So that you can always walk in and have a conversation after the fact because the guy or the gal knows that, you know, it was a straightforward conversation, that you build some rapport that that bonds you together in an industry that you’re going to continue to sell into. And, and and take that to the bank later on with, put that to work, you know, to your advantage, that now you have a contact that you want to stay in touch with. That this sales process didn’t come to fruition. But you took it away, you recognized it first. They weren’t trying to shoo you out the door. They were hearing you say, and if they didn’t come your direction, because not all the time, you know, they’re not going to fall into you like an S. But you keep that crack in the door so that you can put your foot in there, stick your head around and say “is today the day?”

Okay, nice. Nannette?

I just really think it’s all about stepping stones. Like you got to just constantly investigate. I just think it’s stepping stones, you learn from negative comments they make. I love so much what Clint said today about writing down. I don’t literally write down but I think that’s so, well I do. I like writing. I do like writing. But I think it’s, that’s really a, really great tip. I think that’s the best tip for today. But what Clint said about just catching those, catching those, great, great phrases that your clients.

Awesome. Okay, so for the C’s couple of things. Even if it’s a smaller market, and know today is not a no for forever. So kind of back to to Al’s point, you know, if you can, if you can extricate yourself away from that, call it over, right? Get it out of your CRM and out of your process, you’re not allocating bandwidth, mental bandwidth to following up with them. Which then gives you time to go look for the next person to replace that deal that just fell out of your pipeline, because you’re not gonna close everything. You know, I spent a year feeling like every no that I got was a was a failure on my part, and I was taking all the ownership, which isn’t helpful, it’s not healthy, right? So you’re not a fit for everybody. That’s okay. It’s not a no for forever. Go look at your pipeline, and understand that you’re not going to close all those deals, right? It’s just not going to happen. No one closes 100%. And you shouldn’t be if you are, you’re not charging enough, right, like, like something is drastically wrong if you’re closing every deal that you get in front of someone. And then the other thing is, this is going to sound really weird. But when I’m, when I’m hearing things that are, you know, sounding off my internal alarms, I go back to this idea. And this is my, this is more of a mindset issue. I don’t know how actionable This is, which would drive me nuts as a C listening. But I’ve got room for 10 clients, I have 9 and all my bills are paid, I’m not going to take any crap off of the person who wants to be the 10th one. I’m going to cut this off, I’m going to move on to the next one because I can’t, right. Sometimes you got to fake it until you make it which is uncomfortable for C’s. But you know, have that mental process, you know, because you can’t reinvent, you can’t reinvent your offering.

Really good point. Don’t be starving.

Yeah, don’t be starving. And

Even if you are, right, suck it up.

One last point, and I’m sorry to drone on. But they’re so used to being, to having the salesperson Johnny on the spot, I can tell this guy no today, and he’s going to check in in a week. And then I can, I can tell him I’m not going to be interested then, and he’s just gonna keep following up until I’m ready to move forward. Right? So if you don’t dig in and set expectations and get that next step on the calendar,

If you can’t put it on the calendar, it’s a no go.

Right. And, and the people that I work with, like, like one of the things that we talked about whenever we’re talking about your CRM and your processes, and everything else is, hey, if you don’t have a next step is this, should this still be in a pipeline? The next step? Because in my world, no. If we have a conversation, and I’m like, hey, like, what do you think we should do, they’re like, well, let’s call next week, I’m gonna do everything I can like, hedge down a day. And if I can’t get one, okay, I kind of get the feeling that this might be over. And that you’re just being polite about it. Can we talk about that?

Yes, sometimes the answer isn’t always going for the no right away, right? Sometimes it’s how do I help you grow what you want to do? Right? Can I even be involved in that situation. I would say for most of us in business that we can, we can do a lot of things on the front end to help grow a guy’s cocktail napkin into a project, healthcare, CRM, sales, consulting, businesses, construction. There’s a lot of things that we can provide as value to help somebody get the right frame of mind. In this situation, I go back, a lot of times that I set expectations, and I set the platform, I want to set that platform, I want to create the platform that we’re operating in nine months from now. If you go into it, and you say, here’s all the free consulting that you want, go, go get after it. Well, but a lot of people, a lot of people do, and I think most people do. So what I’m saying is create a platform, don’t give, don’t give away free consulting, say that, you know, say things like, like, I can help you through this process, I’m going to add value as my company to yours, to get you to your common goal, which I also have, because I truly care about what you’re doing. I can create a platform that we can all operate in. Financially, productively, we’re going to do these things that are going to make you successful. But you have to trust me, and you got to create that trust, right? You say those things up front. And when those things come around again, one you gotta deliver, we got to mean it. Don’t say those things if you don’t mean it. And that’s tough for a couple personalities up here. But I really think that you can provide a lot of front end,

Hold on, we don’t have time to dig into that. We do not have time to dig into that, we’re wrapping up.

Kinda backhanded here…

What I’m saying is that I think you can provide a lot of front end value without giving away free consulting.

I agree with that. I agree.

And, and I’s are notorious for doing it.

So sometimes going for the hard no, going for those things that just wipes your customer off the off the face of the earth and you chase them. That’s my natural inclination. That’s what I want to do. But sometimes I can provide value and I can plant a seed to get them to grow down the road so that I actually have a project. Awesome.

Awesome. So we’re going to wrap up I know. Good. Clint had some bombs in there today.

Sorry, man, I, you know, I man, I it was, not that I really give a shit because I love hearing myself talk. Look, guys, I will, I will tell you, you know, thanks. Thanks, Brian, for reaching out, and giving us, giving us some feedback because what a great topic that was.

That’s a huge topic.

And somebody that’s outside of probably our industry, but also in a industry that is very secluded, right, doesn’t have a lot of options. Those are the toughest environments to operate in and not, and I, you know, I know Brian, he, he does very well, but he has to live by these processes. And he has to understand personalities. And that’s not easy. When, when if you make a mistake that might be true, might be your only customer for three or four months. That’s tough. We, I would say I don’t live in that world. Now. A lot of us up here we have options.

But we want to hear about those things, right? We want those, you know, because we, our spectrum is, you know, maybe broad, but there’s going to be challenges that each one of you guys are out there. We want to sink our teeth into how can we help if we know about your project, or we know about your struggle?

Yeah, so if you got any value out of the show, please share it with someone else. Sales is hard enough. You don’t got to be out there by yourself. Thanks to Brian for the question. If you have questions, or if you just want to chime in, hashtag your team Team C for the win, not Team D. We’re on all the major platforms, right Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, everything is at Sales Throwdown. You can send us an email directly: pod@salesthrowdown.com, we’ll get it. Ask your questions. If you’re listening to this, you’re getting any value, leave a review. Be honest. That’s how we get better. And we’ll see everybody next week.

Happy birthday, John.

Thank you, right if you’re watching on YouTube, enjoy my shirt, it’s got dinosaurs. Thanks everybody.

Never forget, veterans out there. Absolutely. Never, ever. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you guys. Have a good night. Good night.