Episode 15: Ego versus Confidence in Sales


Welcome to the show everybody. On this episode we unpack ego. And Al brings a very interesting take to it. We talk a lot about his point of view on it. And we talked about the good sides and the bad sides. The things that I want you to take away is that it’s not always a bad thing. You know, sometimes you need some ego to get up and knock on that next door. After you’ve gotten a bunch of no’s, that takes some ego, some confidence. So listen to how we unpack it. I think we cover a lot of interesting ground in the show. I hope you get a lot out of it. Follow us on social media. Share this with a friend if they’re in sales and you think that they might get some value out of it. And if you’re not sure where you are on the D, I, S, or C scale and you want to find out, shoot us an email assessments or assessment, excuse me at sales throwdown.com and we’ll get you hooked up. Thanks a lot.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the main event. In the D corner, we have Clint The Cleaver Bigelow. In the I corner, we have Al The Gambler Daniel. In the S corner, we have Nan The Promoter Fallman in the C corner, we have John Small Mountain Hill. Let’s get ready to throwdown.

Welcome to the show everybody. Today, we are talking about something that’s super important.

My favorite subject.

It is right? We’re talking about ego. Yeah. And it’s one of these things, you got to have some of it, inherently, right. If you’re going to walk into an office and say, Hey, you should pay me to do this thing that you’re already paying someone else to do. But I’m going to be better. That is inherently an ego driven conversation, but you can go too far.

Yeah, well, wait a second, let me stop you, I think, I don’t think you’re completely on base with what ego really is.

Enlighten me.

Hold on, hold on. Before we do this…

What is ego? Let’s give the definition. Let’s do it. Okay.

Go ahead, Doctor.

Doctor, let’s talk about the doctor doctor.

So if you if you just Google ego and you’re looking for just the definition, first thing that pops up is the person’s sense of self esteem or self importance. Ok. Now the psychoanalyst, the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for testing for reality testing and a sense of personal identity compared with id and super ego. Right?


So where I go with that is, when we hear the word ego, we automatically conjure up the picture of the asshole, right?

Of course.

Yeah. Clint. Yeah.

But that’s not true. That really isn’t, because, thank you, when you, when you trace it back to where it came from it came from Sigmund Freud. Right. You know, he was a psychoanalyst, the turn of the century. And Freud, whether you agree with him or not, it’s just what he postulated was that we had this somewhat reptilian brain. And we really do. The thing that just drives us to eat, I’m hungry, I need to feed myself. But then there’s a middle ground in your limbic system. It says, If I’m sitting in a meeting, right, and I get hungry, I don’t just get up and go to the kitchen and make a sandwich. Well, some of us don’t. Okay? The psychopath does, right because he misses some of this, right? But, but you see where I’m going with this is that, that middle brain that allows you to have a reality check between your wants and your desires, right. And then there’s the super ego that sits beyond that says, you know, deals with morality and other things. This is just your practical side of yourself that says, What’s my identity? And how do I express myself in any given situation? Okay, so chew on that for a second. There’s more to come.

Yeah, I mean, I can’t tell you how many personalities that I deal with that literally I sit in meetings with and I think, man your ego is so strong that you’re willing to do that, right?

What do you mean? Can you give me an example?

It could be like a you know, ignoring me or like texting on your phone? Like I’m in the middle of a speech right? And you’re, you’re texting on your phone or you’re typing on the computer and I think, Damn your ego is so strong that you’re willing to just blow me out of the water because your, whatever you’re doing is more important. To me, that’s ego that’s a strong…

Funny to me that you label that ego because I don’t, I don’t think of that as being ego.

And I agree. I think that, I think that’s lacking ego right, your self worth you. You literally have, that’s where my desire to do this overrides me being social, normal, appropriate.

It’s interesting that that you guys have a completely different take on ego than I do. Because I see when I hear ego I hear cocky.

Well, when I, when I hear ego, I think you’re only thinking about yourself. So it can, it doesn’t have to be someone that’s really like you, a really domineering person, it can be a person and I’m thinking of, just a girl that is so overly concerned with herself in a negative way that she can even get beyond it. So it is not always I’m wonderful. It’s the only thing that’s happening is what’s happening in my world and I can’t focus on someone else.

But let’s don’t confuse this with narcissism. All right, let’s don’t confuse this with other personality disorders. So…

That’s where I go instantly is narcissism

See I don’t.

It’s not me either.

But what I’m saying is don’t confuse the word ego with personality disorders, right?

Because I do, instantly I go there.

I mean most people do. So when I use, when I throw out that topic ego, it’s easy to think ego negativity right? versus

Okay so when you when you talk about a sales personality, right, we in the realm that we’re dealing in, a big sales personality that has a big ego, we use that word a lot right? Okay, he’s got a big ego he should be a salesperson. What do you, what are you talking about? Because…

I don’t think that way. Do you still think that way?

Absolutely. I do.

You think, you think someone has got a lot of ego, that would be a good salesperson?

A high I has a lot of ego and I think instantly, he’s gonna be a good salesperson, man. He can bullshit his way through anything.

Okay. So I think the opposite, right? Like I think if you have a lot of ego, you gotta learn how to shelve that before you can go out and have really good conversations and focus on what’s best for the for the current situation you’re in.

I don’t disagree with that. You’re right and that’s the best practice to use it. I’m saying that most traditional sales people out there, the people that we’re running into every day, have a huge ego. They walk into room, they’re like, dude, I’m the party guy. Let’s do shots on me. And listen to everything that I have to say it’s, it’s a big ego boost, right? Like they have to have that.

You’re both right, and here’s why. That’s not ego, that’s narcissism. Because everybody has a strong ego here, right? We have a strong self worth, right? Here’s how ego works. Ego allows you to take your wants and your desires, put them in a realistic context, and then overcome adversity. People with strong egos are good, have good coping skills. They have good problem solving skills. They can work around an issue that just crops up. That’s where your ego says, here’s the reality. Here’s your want, here’s your reality, how do you match those two together? And how do you work this situation out? Because people with poor egos fall apart under pressure?

Do you think that goes into the what you’re talking about? Because, because because I like what you just said, because I feel like that describes me a little bit.

But it describes everybody here because we all solve problems.

But here’s the deal. You wouldn’t be sitting behind the microphone talking about how you sell them, what’s important to you, and like really opening up about who you are and why it’s important if you didn’t have a little bit of ego saying that this is good stuff. Okay.

I agree with that. Is there a fine line between cocky and confident and ego? Right?

In a personality disorder? Oh, sure. That’s why I’m I’m going to go back to when things are, if you’re using or you have a psychosis, that’s your crutch to get through an issue, anger issues, right. That’s not ego. That’s anger issues, right. If you’re intimidated, that’s a natural reaction. But if you don’t overcome it and it’s fear that drives you, that’s that’s an issue with fear, that’s not an issue with ego.

That’s interesting because I think a lot of simplistic minds out there, myself included because man you’re blowing my mind right now, but, but I think that when I look at people that have those issues with fear and I think that that guy, right, let’s go to like a scary movie right? Running down the hallway, you get people that want to stick together. You want to get that guy that’s like, hey, let’s split up, I got my own, right. To me, that’s ego. Like you’ve got a shit ton of confidence and cockiness in yourself that you’re going to survive. And you want to split up because you don’t want to be held back by those other people.

But isn’t that you in that situation?

Well, that’s what I’m saying. Like so. Yeah, yes. I mean, simplistically, yes.

Clint only describes himself, every time. Don’t get, don’t get confused out there. Himself. Every time. On your mirror, it’s there.

No doubt, but this is probably my most confusing topic that we’re going to talk about as a high D is like ego, what is ego? Well, for you three, it’s very different than what it is for me. It’s, for me, it’s confidence. Like, when I see a guy with a high ego, I’m like, man, he’s confident. He knows what he’s doing. We should hire that guy.

Okay, but Okay, so that’s an admirable trait used in when you say, Hey, he’s very confident. Everybody says, Oh my God, that’s the guy I want to meet. If you say he’s a narcissistic asshole. Well, nobody wants to meet that guy.

Or, he’s got a lot of ego. You don’t want to go out of your way….

So how do you differentiate the two?

Okay, you don’t, you differentiate personalities. Ego is your perception of your best self. Right?

It’s definitely self.

So you’re saying that. So if I had to…

Man, we are deep in this topic.

No, we are but it’s good. Because if we had to break this down on the DISC profile on the D, I, S, and C, ego to every what you’re saying, is is a little bit different, it’s confidence, right?

Your self reality.

Or self reality. So if, if you’re really confident and being compassion and you have all that Mother Teresa style stuff, you’re really high ego S, is that what you’re saying?

I’m saying, absolutely, because you can’t tell me that Mother Teresa was a pussy.

No, she’s not at all.

She was in Calcutta….

She faced everybody, she faced everybody.

Exactly she, and she got vilified in certain arenas because she had to decide who she could take in. She only had so many resources.

So what you’re telling me is that Julius Caesar and Mother Teresa had ego.

Absolutely. She probably had more ego cuz she had less men around her to protect her.

She had a bunch of cripples and kids who had no money.

John’s rolling his eyes but…

I’m not rolling my eyes.

Well. I think that’s interesting though, because ego to me lands in the high corner D, in my mind,

Well, I think…

But now what you guys are saying is that that’s not true. Every corner has its ego.

I think the ego D over there needs to let John talk. Go ahead, John.

The, the thing you know what, anyway? When I think about it is when, you know, for lack of better term, you think your shit doesn’t stink, right? Like you can do no wrong, everything’s gonna be perfect and then it’s never your fault. It’s always someone else’s, right.

Personality disorder, not ego.

He’s, he’s right because that’s cocky, what you’re talking about is cocky.

But, okay, so to me, there’s a lot of overlap there. So this was your topic, Al. So how does this present as a salesperson, what do we need to be aware of? How do we, how do we make sure that we’re thinking about it the right way, so that way it’s not limiting us?

I think what happens is, if you’ll quit excusing things to ego and start subdividing it into, well not to say that a narcissistic person doesn’t have a strong opinion of themselves and a strong reality. It’s just, kind of tilted in the wrong direction. But I think if you’re sitting back thinking, purely about ego and the fact that you have the all these wants and desires, and they come from different, you know, things in your life, and you’re trying to match where your ego should sit, it should sit in the best arena for coping with whatever your problems, whatever your issues, whatever your challenges are.

Well, that’s interesting because I talked about it a lot like as a high D, you need to check your ego and put it in the backseat, right? I say that a lot. As much, as our, as a top tool for you, you have a, you have a very big ego as a high D and you should use that because that’s your tool, right? Like you’re going to use that ego to ask the hard questions. You’re not scared to ask that stuff. But at some point, you need to check that ego, put it in the backseat. So it’s really interesting for me to hear from an IS and see what ego means to you, guys.

But if your ego sits and says my inner self wants to talk too much, tell too many stories. Guess what? There’s your ego checking your natural tendency to be you, so that the reality is the best picture you can present. Because you said the same thing in a different way. Right? You said I gotta pull myself back because I sometimes get a little too headstrong and maybe Nan says sometimes I’m too quiet and my ego…

Or maybe I have or maybe I have too much compassion. I need to pull my compassion back a little bit. Or maybe I need to pull my facts back…

Only a D would say too much compassion.

Well hold on, but maybe like as a C, maybe I need to pull my facts back a little bit.

As you pointed your finger completely across my face, right. Mr. Awareness there.

Ego, bitch.

Anyway, there’s where I’m, I want us to think about when you say ego.

So so when we’re in a sales conversation, Doc, what do you think, you talked about ego driven sales conversations because that’s what’s in my mind right now. Like when I sit across, when I’m across from my conference, at a conference table from a guy, and he’s talking about sales conversations with me. There’s ego, that’s going to be a battle there. Right? Maybe he’s a high D and I’m a high D and I say, check my ego. What is your explanation of what’s going on there?

Well, when you say check your ego, you’re checking your personality traits that tend to overcome well, or push you a little too far that may rub that guy the wrong way.

Right, finding what’s appropriate.

Well, that’s a good point, right? Because I happen to do this a lot, right? I sit across from a person that wants to tell me about how great his business is, and my first inclination is like, it’s not that fucking great bro. You only did 20 million last year. Not that great, right? But that’s my natural inclination. That’s my ego getting involved with the conversation and, and what I want to do is I want to take that back? And I want to have a little bit of Nan come into the conversation and say 20 million, you did 20 million!?

Okay, because that would be the best way to handle that situation. Right. Agreed. So you’re, you’re, and the fact that you recognize that is your ego saying I would be better if I did it this way? I agree. Right. And that’s, that’s a strong ego. That’s that is the strength of ego.

So your, so your argument that is, is kind of, if I’m paraphrasing, is that the way that we all think about ego needs to change?

It should change? Yes.

So as a C, right, I love to be right. And I have, I’ve exploded some relationships and some conversations and some deals, because I’m willing, I’m willing to die on this hill. Right. I was right. You were wrong. I will. I will, are you because I got my facts, right. I’ve got these emails. I’ve got, I’ve got this chain. Right. And this happened actually, earlier this week. I live on that hill too. Right. Yeah. And so but the thing that I’m working on is, that doesn’t help me. Right? It costs me nothing and the grand scheme of things to be like, you know what? I’m just gonna take ownership of this, this is my fault, right? Even if it’s not, because as we know, if we take it away from someone, then they’re usually going to kind of step up and be like, Oh, no, everything’s okay. Right? Whereas if we just respond with conflict, which is what I want to do, because I need to be right, right, it’s it’s deep in there.

get your ID, that’s your low. That’s your gut feeling saying, right? Because that’s your inner child screaming, I want the ice cream. Yeah, versus the ego that says, here’s what’s the best part of me dealing and controlling the situation.

Well, I love that analogy in developing your own ego, like you’re naturally, as a D, I, S, and C, you’re given a natural ego to chase after certain things. For you, it’s facts, for me it’s task, right. I want to get this job done, I don’t give a shit what you think. For you it’s hey can we have fun, for you it’s are you compassionate about this project? What you’re, what you’re kind of saying is that you can develop a another ego, a little bit, you can you can slide a certain way.

I think your id, I think your id, is the D, the I, the S, and the C. Your ego is that next level up of conscious awareness of yet that id that sits is an I that talks too much, that carries on too long, that’s inappropriate.

I mean, that’s pretty profound because I’ve honestly never thought that deep psychologically on that level.

And this is just a Freud, Freudian theory, and there’s some you know, there’s some other Erickson and some other guys that, that, and this is scratching the surface guys, this is Romper Room, you know, psychoanalysis, but I think it’s helpful if you kind of evaluate, okay, here’s the why behind when I’m good, sometimes gets the best of me and I step in it, because I let my desires and my wants get in front of what could have been a better situation.

You’re right. But there’s so many times that I, I simply say check that ego. And I don’t know.

Oh, it’s just a cliche.

It is. But I say it all the time.

Check your narcissism, check your personality,

For me personally, I know what that means.

Okay, but that’s words that you attach to a certain…

But I don’t know that everybody out there listening to this knows exactly, when I say check your ego. Maybe they don’t know what that means. And you’re giving some insight to a little bit broader term of what that is. Because to be honest with you to me before today, before this conversation, checking your ego meant, leave your cockiness at the door. That’s what it meant to me. Okay, and what I’m learning from you guys today is that’s not exactly what it means to you guys, or to the world right?

Or in the literal definition of ego. I say I think it’s more, I think the most of the world feels the way you feel. Okay? I mean, so if you use that terminology, most people would clue in that you’re talking about leaving, like you say, you know, your

The attitude. Okay, well put. Making it about me.

Yeah, exactly. Leave that at the door.

So when I, when I checked my ego, I’m not going to go in going, Oh, man, I’ve had a really bad day, this has happened, this is or or even say, oh, man, I just killed an account to another account. I’m going to check that and listen to them. Try to find out what is going on with them. Not, they don’t need to hear what’s going on with me. I don’t think that’s, is that…

No, no, that’s absolutely spot on.

It is spot on because it’s so different than what I think of ego. But what you just said, you know, check your ego for an S that means something totally different than what it does for me as a D. But they both accomplish the same thing. Right and it is the same thing, in the big picture view of what ego is because it’s your tools in your tool chest, it’s my tools in my tool chest.

And people that have strong egos, or what term you use are they’re, they’re very self aware, they know what they’re good at. They know that and they don’t beat themselves up about their faults. They recognize that they could be better at that. But there’s, you know, they’re just not the best, but there are others that they really balance that out with well, I’m really good at this.

Well, the thing is that, you know, and I may say it 100 times, but I don’t ever want any one person to try to differ, you know, differentiate their their tools to somebody else’s. So if you have tools in your toolbox, and that’s what gets you home, and that’s what gets you safe, and that’s what makes a sale. Use those but understand how to use those. And that ego. I mean, it plays a big part in all that right. Oh, so, so if I’m an expert technically at one subject, and I’m talking to somebody in a I’m trying to make a sale. The one thing that I don’t want to do in that situation is just overwhelm them with technical facts right? That’s my ego getting involved because I know more than you, I want to, I want to…

No, that’s your id getting involved and your ego says, you know, it’s probably not a wise idea to make this guy look stupid. Okay, right, by greater good would be to check my knowledge. I mean, that’s cool because I’m in the push that I want to put out there to let this guy talk. And then I can begin to lay stuff out to him in an appropriate way. Because you know how you like want to run with scissors sometimes. I mean, and the better thing with the stronger the ego sits back and says, my opportunity is going to come let’s let’s hear this out.

It’s the lost art of listening. You have to listen. I mean that, I think that’s so vital. We talked about how important it is to listen.

You know, I’ll give you an example. And Nan, you’ll love this, but I was in church on Sunday. Yeah, so in church, they were talking about hell.

So they were talking about Hellfire and brimstone. And this guy was just talking about hell, right? And he was just like, Man this hell is, hell is this? Why would you ever want to go there? And you know what’s funny as a high D, and ego, maybe a little bit, and cocky and confident all this stuff. I leaned over to Jessica, my wife and I said, You know what? I kind of want to see it. I kind of want…

No, no, you’re right. But you’re right. But at the same time, that’s my pers… But what I told her after afterwards on the home was like, that fits my personality to a tee is that I want to see it. I want to see if I can beat it. Right? Or words used to be a fearful thing, like, Don’t ever go this way because there’s better things out there. I look at it and I say, Show me, I want to beat it.

Guess what, be careful what you wish for.

Milton: better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven.

The thing is, is the thing is though, guys is I’m not right. That’s just my my natural inclination of when I hear that statement of you don’t ever want to do with this. I want to say, Let’s see it.

Do you think that’s a D thing? Or do you think that’s a You thing?

Well, maybe…

Do you ever tell your children not to do something?

No, not… John, you got a good point because we’ve hit on this a couple times. Is that a, is that a Clint thing or a D thing?

When he says Clint, he’s talking about personality disorder. When he’s talking about D thing, there’s a rational group of people that actually fit in to that category.

I’m not saying me and Dexter don’t have a lot in common. I’m just saying that sometimes, sometimes there’s questions that are posed to me and I think, Well, I think the majority of people think a certain way and they agree with you. I think the opposite way, like I want to face that confrontation, I want to face the chaos. Okay, I want to see if I can beat it. And if I don’t, then I failed trying.

But being a contrarian, though, is a little, it’s a legitimate position to to say, Well, okay, you had something to say.

I, I’m, I want to let you finish your thought because I’m about to take us off track, I think. But I’m curious.

Yeah, to think just because you think differently from the person sitting across from you. That’s usually an indication that you’ve got a pretty balanced and reasonable ego. You have your reasons, and they make sense and they should make sense. And if the other person just disagrees or has a different opinion.

Don’t be defensive. Don’t be rude.

It doesn’t make him right, doesn’t make you wrong, until you figure that out.

That’s the nugget right, is that you’re not right. And he’s not right. You’re not wrong and he’s not wrong.

But somebody may be.

Somebody’s right.

But it a certain point, there’s a reasonable way to approach that and figure that out.

But there’s so much nuance in between those two points, I think, right?

Expand on that a little bit.

Right. So so in the thing that we’re talking about, right, you know, you’re having a conversation and you guys are on counterpoints, right. And the thing that my mind jumps to is like a political conversation. Right? Why I didn’t want to go there. Yeah, I don’t, I don’t really want to either. But, I know you do. But uh, you know, we’re so polarized. Right? That everyone’s pushed to the sides. Right? Exactly. Right. And then you got this commit, commitment, which is wrong. Well, you have a commitment to consistency trigger, right. If you tell one person that you’re, you know, conservative, then you gotta pick up and carry everything that’s part of you know, what’s currently conservative. Right. And so,

and you may not agree with all those, right?

Absolutely. But…

So but you had to pick a side. Exactly. And and that happens in sales conversations all the time, right.

What do you mean by that?

I faced this quite a bit like in the negotiations of a, let’s just say project of a sales conversation. Well, we need you to do this. Well, I can’t do that. And you instantly provoke this A and B side this, conservative/liberal side of there’s a split. Now there’s a split on the table. There’s a, there’s a line drawn and I have to either be on your side or I have to be on my side. When the fact is, is that that’s not true.

Yeah, we can meet somewhere in the middle.

I can I can meet somewhere in the middle. You like this? I like that.

To have success, you have to have mutual benefit.

I agree. But I don’t think a lot of people think that way. Right.

Okay. But, but you’re almost making it like it’s 50/50. Because if I looked at you and Clint said, If you got 98% of what you wanted…

Is that not success?

I’m asking you.

I mean, to me, to me knowing what I know now it is, it is okay. Right? But but to a lot of people, they get put off by the 2%. Okay, but the 2% may…

Okay, but the 2% may mean, Oh, you’ve got to give up your First Born, you know.

You know what I would say to that is check your fucking ego. Which is interesting, right.

To which side?

To to give into the 2%. You got 98.

I understand but if you are hanging, it may be the 2% is, you know weighs more than the 98%. Yeah, absolutely. It’s gotta come in green, I love everything but the green and you’re like, I can’t do it but in green.

In a sales conversation, I run. I run into this a lot like, okay, we need you to cut. Let’s just say, $100,000 off the project. Look, man, I can do that. But you’re going to cut scope, you’re going to cut things that you asked for. And now we can’t provide those.

So give me the solution. You gave me the problem. Exactly. Tell me what the solution is.

It’s a great point. Right? So if I tell you that I can’t do A, you know, I’m on B, you’re on A, and I can’t do any of that because you’ve set ultimatums. I think that’s where a lot of salespeople fail. Is that what you have is options to deliver, is that look, I can’t do A, I can do C, because of blah, blah, blah. And that’s not free consulting. Look, that’s not free consulting. That’s… let me stop you for just one second.

Let me stop you for just one second. There’s where the strong ego says, I’m not gonna, I may not win this deal. But I know I can’t do it that way. So I’m going to have to be okay. And my reality is this is slipping away. And I don’t need to beg for it.

So do you dig for information after that? You did questions? You can. Right? You can. So like, I’m not going to win this because he’s so set in his side.

Now, you’ve already made an assumption that you’re not going to win it. I’m saying ego simply says, I’m going to be okay if I don’t, because you know, the guy that just oh my god, I got so close and now he’s just going like this and it’s two weeks to get past the fact that he, the deal didn’t come through. Now I think a strong ego says, didn’t win that one. How would I be better next time and you sit and you keep everything in the right proportion, you’re upset, maybe you’re a little bitter, maybe a little of everything, but you’re not pushing towards a personality disorder on this and I keep using that term, but I’m focusing in on that the inappropriateness that we all sometimes get caught up in and then you walk away and you go, I shouldn’t have acted that way.

So what are some examples of that.

Harboring bitter feelings towards somebody that just had a different opinion for way too long for for all the wrong reasons?

Okay, right.

You know, and blaming other people putting, you know, putting your every it’s always somebody, everything is your fault, guys, everything is. And then when you learn that it gets a whole lot easier.

Do you think you can build a unified ego amongst you and the person that you’re trying to sell to?

I absolutely think you can and that’s, that’s a great observation. Because when egos match up, you’re like, Man, that’s a normal cool dude sitting up there. I don’t actually agree with him. But man, I like his style and delivering it.

And it’s identifying what is your ego?

So we talked about a lot like identifying personalities and body language. And, you know, we talked about that a lot. And that’s really important, but egos is one of those things. It’s a psychological backseat, right? That we don’t think about a lot but if you can unify your goal, is that not unifying the ego?

Have you not, remember some of our after dinners after this, where you wake up, and I think I got excommunicated, and we all laughed because we have strong egos and but we all still really get along and there’s a lot of love at the table and all that.

I think, I think that’s the coolest part about this whole podcast. You know, when when I go out and I talked about this podcast I I think that’s this one of the most informational things that I can talk about is that we have a D, I, S, and C. If you don’t know anything about DISC, just think about four corners of the opposite universes, right? Think about that because that’s what we are.

Very high egos.

DISC, is just so far so far but we all deal in these day to day sales conversations with, with like people, right? So you deal with it as an I, I deal with it as a D, and S and C. But what you’re saying is pretty profound in my, in my book because what you’re saying is that we can, we can come together on an ego level, not just a fact based or not just an emotional level but an ego level. That’s, that’s big for me, right? So if I see somebody across from me that has a huge ego, and he thinks that he is only right, right, his his way or the highway. That’s my way, right? I think that way, I naturally think that way as a high D, but if that guy thinks that way, and I can kind of bring him to my level. And I can bring a little bit of my level to him. And we talk about this unified ego and we can get a project done together. That’s partnerships. That’s what we’re trying to do as salespeople, that is exactly what we’re always trying to do.

Well, I think I think what you do, what you just explained was normalizing the behavior, right? So then it feels normal to sit and communicate and be respectful of that behavior and say, Okay, I understand this.

John, what do you think about that? Normalizing behavior? I mean, I mean, literally sitting

Just changing your frame of reference, I think if you’re just like, go ahead, I wasn’t asked the question. But I just I one thing I was thinking with what y’all are saying, so you take a picture. So someone takes a picture of us. Paul takes a picture of us, and he hands us the picture. The first person you’re going to look at? Is it me? Is it Clint? No, it’s

Do we have our shirts on or off?

No, I’m just saying. We all really think first about ourselves. Sure. Where we really need to create, you can still have ego but incorporate someone else in that.

Okay, but take a picture of you with your family. And what do you look at first?


My babies.

Okay? Hey. Okay. You sure about?

I promise you?

He probably doesn’t. Do you? I don’t know.

No, I’m not sounding shitty, I’m just…

Clint, I’ve gotten somebody you got to talk to. I’ll pay for it. There’s no charge to you, you have to sit there for about 45 minutes and talk.

If you don’t know me for more than a few minutes, you ask, I tell. Right. Yeah, I’m going to give you the honest answer. If you take a picture of me and my family and my kiddos, you know, at a at a park having fun. I’m going to look at I’m going to look at how I look. I’m sorry, that’s, that’s honesty. You know, you know, spite me for being honest. I’m not at this job. I know. I know. But the thing is, is that that explains my personality very well. Right. Right. That explains my ego very well. I’m gonna look at me.

But look, you didn’t get mad whenever I just chuckled about that.

No, I didn’t, no, I don’t give a shit.

Well, okay. And I’m okay with that.

And I don’t care because I’m being honest. Right, right. And that’s one of those things where it’s like in a sales conversation, if you’re being honest, and you’re really laying your you know, your company out on the line, and you’re being honest about what you can and can’t do. And you’re telling them why why should you ever look backwards, right? Why should you ever think about like, Oh, I’m just being cocky. Because I think the people that think they’re being cocky is people saying things that they can’t do. And that happens a lot in sales conversations, right? You say, Oh, yeah, we’re the guy. Give me a call. I’ll do that. Give me a call. I’m your guy. The fact is, is that sometimes you’re not that guy.

If you’re walking around, then you’re lying.

But a lot of people do that, Doc.

Yeah. Oh, no, I understand. No, we’re not, we don’t want the people we’re talking to to be the guy.

It’s really, it’s it’s a, you know, I argue it all the time. I would much rather sit in front of a jury on a courtroom. And somebody asked me 1000 questions, and I can answer them honestly, because through the entire sales conversation, and through the entire operation side of it, I was honest, it may be harsh, and maybe not what you like to hear, but it was honest. So then when I’m sitting in front of a jury, and I said, Yeah, I said that. Yeah, I did this. Yeah, I did that. And I’m honest, that’s a whole lot easier conversation to have than trying to backpedal. Right. Yeah. And to me, that’s a good ego.

Absolutely. Honesty, I think, is one of the trademarks. Now I will go that there’s another thing called super ego and that’s your your morals, your you know the difference between right and wrong and where you sit, a lot of that comes from your family background. In the environment you were raised in because right and wrong is discerned by, you know, social norms, and some of the things that you saw as you develop from being a child, you know. What you’re born with is your id, right? Your inner child, right? You’re just this bundle of, I gotta poop I need to eat and cry. And my parents take care of me. As you begin to recognize self, oh, this is me. There is your ego.

You create your own opinions.

Well, it’s your ego as you your wants and desires. And I’ll have chocolate ice cream instead of strawberry and I’ll do this, this, and this.

That says, I like chocolate, but I really like strawberry.

And when dad says we go to church, and we believe in Jesus, and this is right, and we stop on red and we go on green. There’s the super ego that says, here’s how I, my morals, my you know, those kind of things.

So Albert, so much. Well, you’re making me think of. My mother used to always say what Clint said a few minutes ago. She would say to someone let’s, to me, she’ll say, well, your hair just looks really bad. And I’m like, well, gosh, that was kind of rude. And she’s like, well, I’m just telling you the truth. And so she always thought, if I’m telling you the truth, and so her ego to me never grew up, it was just like her id, it was just always okay. But there’s tact. That’s inappropriate.

Well, there are people that are insensitive, right? That’s a personality disorder. Right? Those are person, they’re they’re personality traits that just are outside of what really should be normal? Yeah. Right.

One of the one of the coolest things about being an honest person is that you can ask questions to somebody that you don’t know for five seconds. And you’re, you’re asking those questions for a reason as sales people. That’s what we should be doing, right, on in our process. We should be asking tough questions to really dig home, why we’re doing this project, why they want to do that project. It doesn’t matter. If you’re in medical sales or CRM or construction. You’re digging for the reason why we’re doing this stuff. You can ask those tough questions, Nan, to your point of like being really honest.

So you have a filter still? If you…

Well, the point of it is, is that you have to understand communication styles, right? So if I’m dealing with a super C, right a high corner C, I know that that guy deals in facts. And I’ve recognized that from the first two minutes, I’ve talked to him. The last thing I want to do is talk about compassion. And I’m going to talk about, hey, if you if you, if you give me this job, we’re going to go out and have a blast at the Texas Rangers games on Tuesday. That’s not going to resonate with him, you know, but if I if I noticed that that guy is a super S, right? He’s a high corner S, he’s a Mother Teresa type. And I talked about compassion and and love and like, Hey, I love this project, because I’m really compassionate about getting this stuff done. That resonates with that guy, that that guy understands what I’m talking about. Communication styles, you’re not saying anything different. It’s just understanding your ego base with hard facts also based with communication styles, that’s why I always say DISC is super important in anything that you do. And it’s not, DISC is not a home run, right? But what it does is it gets you to understand who you are, and who the person across from you is, and you get to communicate in a similar style. That’s all that we’re trying to talk about. So when you talk about ego, which is this podcast, you know, this whole episode is about ego, ego, ego. Take your ego and communicate that person across, you know, across from the table from you in the in the communication style, they’re able to deal with. Agree. Yeah.

My God, John, look at all those amazing zeros behind that number. And that spreadsheet is just off the chain.

So, okay, so I have a question then. So let’s say, you start out in sales and you’re just chasing money, right? You’re not, you’re not super concerned about a great fit, you just want to bring in some business because you got to pay the bills or your boss is all over you and stuff like that?

You’re not in sales.

What do you mean?


You’re not in sales. You’re just gonna, if that’s your goal.

Now, that’s not their goal. That’s just where they are.

Well, but here’s the deal.

I’m shutting you down for a reason. Because I think a lot of people are out there, right? They take a sales position, they think, oh, man, I gotta kill it. I gotta go out there today, and I gotta find 200 prospects, and I got to close 20 of them.

So I, I agree that that’s not where people should be. But I’m saying that like, this is where the majority people start, especially if you’re starting your own thing, right? You know, you’re going to spin up a business and start like going and talking to people. You don’t even know what a bad fit is, versus a good fits. You don’t really qualify anything. You’re just chasing money. So at some point, though, I think a principle changes away from anyone who’s willing to pay me as a good client to Oh, now I actually know what a good client is. And now we got to have conversations that we’ve been qualified around that thing because I’m not going to chase the money anymore.

But what a, but what a nugget this is to realize that you can develop good customers before you chase the money. And the nugget is that you can literally develop good clients. You can do that right now. Right? Absolutely right now, like you don’t have to go chase this money that you’re talking about. I know that’s what most people do and I know that, hey man, I’ve done it. We’ve all done it, right? Yeah, we’ve all set up here. We’ve all went out into the day to day world and said, You know what, I gotta I gotta pay the bill. So please, please buy something. But I’m going to tell you like I did 12 episodes ago. The day you realize that good valued customers are your target and you move forward on those good valued people. You will close more, will just close more, you just will. If your process is refined. You’ll close more. That money, it’ll come secondhand.

And you need to be assured of yourself though. So that’s why ego’s really important to not go in there shaking in your boots.

Well, you can, but be okay with it. And so you know, I’m really new and I’m really nervous. And I’ve got to figure out a way to get past this or, you know, push this down just a little bit and understand that you’re just dealing with your own emotions and don’t let it wreck you. That, that we’ve all faced challenges. And so things that we didn’t do very well.

Is ego just awareness. Is that what you’re saying? I’m still kind of stuck on this whole idea that that everything I kind of defined as ego is not really ego, right? So I’ve been pretty quiet so far on this episode, because I’m trying to like think through this thing, right? Because to me, most gut driven people, I’s and D’s, have got ego, right? Because it’s just like, you look, you look at the situation, you’re like, you know what I can be? positive impact on the situation. I’m gonna go get it, right. You start a business, you do something else.

But you say the same thing.

I say the same thing.

You say exactly those words.

How not? I mean, I don’t mean why, you know?

Not out of the box, right? I mean, so…

Wait a second, so out of the box, are you how are you any different than me? If we walk through the door, out of the box, how?

I’ve got a better question? What does ego mean to you?

Well, that’s the thing that I’ve been stewing on a thinking about, right? Because to me, ego is it’s a mixture of having confidence. And it’s a mixture of also just thinking, like I said earlier that your shit doesn’t stink, right? And you can go too far with that. But, but at some level, it’s healthy, right? You know, you gotta you gotta take pride in what you do and how your company fulfills and how you actually like work with your clients, or else you can’t go have conversations, right? If you don’t believe in the product or service that you’re selling.

People have conversations every day and don’t have any faith or confidence in anything. It’s all bullshit.

So it sounds to me me, if I had to break that down a little bit, confident or ego to you is confidence. Because, because I’m not saying that I wouldn’t agree with that.

It’s too much confidence though, I think.

You’re vilifying it, okay, so…

Right, when I, and as I said a moment ago, I said, I set this expectation that that to me that the, like, Clint was talking about like ego is cockiness. Right?

So okay, you and I open the same door, go in, sit and do a sales call. And we are both bringing our egos in there and our personality see and and I and there’s a conversation about budget. And you reach in and pull out a stack of data that says let me tell you how I justify budget. Right? And you’re feeling very comfortable because you’ve got this and you roll through your presentation and I come in, and they say budget and I look up very confidently go. The numbers really matter? We’re talking satisfaction here.

Man, that’s right on point.

So both of our egos are apropos for the individuals that we are with the resources that we have. Because we’re coping with the stress of how do I deal with budget?

Yeah. So I’m marinating on that.

No, I know you are.

Are you saying my earlier story about the negative ego, where you’re just whining and it’s you can’t get out, personality disorder. You’re saying that’s not ego.

Personality disorder? Hold on because you have made you have said this term rightly and done? It’s a heavy term. Yeah. Right. Because like, I hear that and I’m thinking like, Oh, you got to go to the ward.

People, a lot of people should. Go on any freeway and see how many out of the ward.

But Nan brings up a pretty good point of negative ego versus positivite ego.

How does that not work in your ego world?

So you’re a child state?

Okay, I think when you define ego, it’s a poor concept of your reality. Your poor concept of your, okay? It’s like the child is throwing the fit. You’re like, Hey, I can’t buy you everything.

You know, and you’re not, your coping skills thing right. And we saw that last night, poor coping skills, no reason for this behavior, not just lashing out, right? It’s the it’s the adult temper tantrums is the adult…

So you’re saying, okay, identify, is this, so you’re saying that’s ego?

No, I say that’s, that’s a that’s a that’s a that’s a bad a small ego. You’re use, you’re letting your gut desires rule the day. And your definition because I said strong egos are people who say, Okay, here’s my challenge. I gotta control myself. I gotta go. The environment, and then I got to come out as a winner. At the end of the day, I gotta get convinced this guy that you should buy from me, I got to convince them that I’m the right fit. I got to convince them, whatever that may be.

So before we get to the throwdown section because I’m, I know Paul’s ready to ring the bell. If you’re new to this, right, we we just spend an hour essentially reframing the definition of ego. Right. Kind of.

But I don’t think that was a bad thing, was it?

No no, I’m not saying it was but for the for the the person who’s listening to this, for the layman. Well, I’m feeling pretty layman right now, honestly. Right. But you know, for the person out on the field, right, who’s listened to all of our episodes if you have Thank you very much. What What do you want them to take away from from this topic? Like, like, what’s the what’s the thing that they’re supposed to do tomorrow that’s going to make them better.

But, I think ego is very self defined. That’s, that’s what I’m getting out of this entire episode. Me personally. I mean, if I had notebook in front of me, which I don’t, I wish it did, because I’d write some shit down. But listen, ego is very self defined. Ego is different in each and every one of us. That’s that’s what I’m gathering now to this episode.

Is that based upon the D, I, S, and C.

Yeah, I think so. I think so.

Well they all bring it in a different way.

So my, so my ego, as a C, is facts and logic and figures and data.

And that’s that’s your normal state.

I think that’s a I think that’s a blanket statement for a see. I do I think a blanket statement for D is that you’re cocky and you’re overconfident. And that’s your ego. I think for an I as you think everybody likes you, but they don’t. That’s your, that’s your ego. I think that for, don’t don’t talk Al. I think,

Oh, now I have to.

But I think for an S…

Strong ego coming up.

But I think for an S, what I’m getting out of this is that a strong ego would be that you’re over compassion and maybe not everybody is. So when I say things like check your ego. Check those strong points right

What is the opposite of ego?

The opposite of ego?

God damn it.

You went to church man.

We only have 11 minutes. Okay, and should should we?

I don’t, I don’t know that anyone has an answer for that.

Is it humility?

But you know, to be honest with you.

That’s a good question. Is it humility?

You’re right. It may be.

You guys are still defining this in the wrong way.

I know!

But it’s it’s really interesting because I think we all have our own ego. I think that we all have…

As we should! And it should really be that normal factor that makes us the great individuals that we are.

But once again, self reflection, self awareness, right. Realize what your ego is. I don’t look at it. Here’s what I’ve got out of today. I don’t, I still to this day, don’t know what ego is.

You got homework, man, and all of you, do your homework.

You can look up the web, Webster dictionary version, Doc read it off. I still don’t know. What I think it is is is it’s my strong suits over projected.

Everybody’s gonna be out there Googling ego. There’s a lot of good stuff out there, guys, go check it out.

How quickly can we spin up a website about ego that just gets all this traffic?

They’re already out there. All right. Freud’s been around for a long time. Check him out.

Okay, let’s go to the throw down.

Alright, so, I guess Al is going to speak authoritatively and we’re going to guess at it so, let’s start with Clint.

As, as you know, as a D I would tell you to check your ego, but that doesn’t work out real well.

No, that’s probably good.

No, I look I think that in my definition from a high from a high D is that ego is that those things in your toolbox that are make you what you are, those able to ask the honest questions without anybody, without care, you don’t care, right? You just don’t give a shit. Right? But be careful. And I think that’s where ego comes involved is that you think you’re better than somebody, right? You’re going to ask this because you’re trying to win. ask the questions in a in a discovery sort of way, right? That’s where that check the ego comes in, in, in my mind, that’s what checking the ego means is don’t ask because you’re being manipulative and deliberate, ask it in a discovery way because the rest of these three up here on this panel, that’s what they’re doing. And it works, right. You’re trying to gain information. We’re always trying to gain information to sales people asking a discovery sort of way and not a deliberative egotistic way.

Okay. Al?

Wait, did that make sense? Rewind, capture it.

Yeah, I agree with what everybody said up here today. I think ego

Hold on, we’re in the throw down, let him talk.

I think that ego is that portion of yourself that keeps you as normal and as comfortable in your own skin and, and allows you to really use the coping skills you should have. When you have a strong one. You’ve got it, you know, you can work through things and you’re okay if they don’t work out and it keeps you from being batshit crazy. As long as it’s strong enough.

Okay, Nannette?

CS Lewis, I love him, said humility is less is not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less. And that’s what I think of ego which might be completely off base, but I’m gonna take my ego of confidence, I think its confidence, and I I set it aside and try to think more of what my client wants.

I’m, I’m still reeling here, like, I’m going to be up all night, like stuff from researching and reading is not an easy topic. So I’m going to revert back to like, what I think about his ego, right is making it about you. And I think I know that apparently, that’s the wrong definition of a bit. Like, that’s just still what I think about at a gut level, you know? Sure. And so I think that some of it is healthy, you know, you got to be confident in what you do and how you deliver, in my opinion. But you got to balance that with the idea of, you got to do what’s right for the other person who’s sitting across from you, right? So for me, I spent a lot of time judging people negatively for making what I feel like you’re dumb decisions, right? Like, oh, that doesn’t make any sense, you’re stupid. And I spent a lot of time in my head doing that, you know, and honestly, whenever you and I were talking about working together in the very beginning, we’re sitting in a bar, and you’re like, you know, what do you think about sales? And this is before any any of us knew we needed this stuff, right? It was a long time ago. And I said, I said, I’m going to know more than anybody else is. Right. And you were like, Okay, cool. I got a spot. Right? And to me, that is ego. Like that idea that I, by knowing more, I’m going to be better than someone else.

Do you think ego is self worth?


Yeah, I’m trying to compile this together. I’m learning here folks.

I think ego is self.

I’m so confused, if I’m being really honest.

Well, hopefully everybody else is, and hopefully, if you’re out there, and you’re like, Oh, my God, I’ve had so many questions. That’s what we’re hoping for.

If you got a PhD, please chime in.

There’s going to be some guys who were going to maybe, you know, put some things in, we’re scratching the surface. It goes a whole lot deeper than that. This came from Sigmund Freud. And it’s a I see some, a lot of legitimacy in it. And if you want to know more, I know we’re on the countdown here. Call John Hill because he’ll know the answer.

I will. I will by the time this comes out.

He’ll know where you should reference it, what book you should get it from.

Speaking of book, where is our book guy?

Oh yeah, so we did a book giveaway as part of the launch. He, he’s here in town, right and so we invited him out to a show. We’ve not been able to coordinate like when he’s available to like actually come hang out. But he he says that he wants to come hang out and watch a taping and hang out and have a kick ass dinner with us because that’s what we do after these episodes. So yeah, so hopefully he’ll be here soon.

And I’m gonna tell you what, I’m gonna tell you guys right now, I have had some of the best conversations after these podcasts with people calling in, emailing. I mean, guys, you’re talking about even the most simplistic topic that you could think of a walk into a conference room or walk into a gatekeeper and this is what I ran into. How do you deal with that? I’ve had those conversations with people and they are… I learned as much from You as you are from me. No doubt.

So in those, if you’re listening to this and you’re in, you’re having some situations that you’re stuck on or having problems with or something else, don’t just call Clint. Right? Send us an email. Hit us up on social media. We’ll talk about it on the show, right? Because I’ll answer him. We have a couple of topics coming up from from the field and, and we love that stuff. Yeah, so absolutely. And wrapping up, right? Follow us on social media. Everything is at Sales Throwdown, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. We’re on YouTube. So if you’re watching this and you’re looking at our sweet cups, that’d be awesome. Hashtag TeamD, and yeah, share this was someone else right? If If you can’t figure out the the definition of ego, welcome to the party. I’m there with you. But you know, there’s there’s so much wrapped up in this thing, right? There’s multiple layers and you got to figure out yourself and like, it starts there. Right? If you’re, if you’re running around thinking, well, it’s their fault and stuff like that. You’re probably wrong, right? You got to take a second kind of don’t have time today, man. Now Now,

I get that but I’m saying, email us contact us of social media. Let’s talk about it. Because, look, you might get a different perspective that helps you push through that final thing. please reach out,

Right? It’s hard enough. You don’t have to be out there all by yourself, right? That’s kind of why we’re here. Alright everybody, have a great night. We’ll see you next week. Cheers.