Episode 21: Workplace Culture: Ownership and Creation in Sales (Part 2)


Welcome to the show everybody. This is part two of our culture episode. So if you’ve not listened to part one, or if you’re new, go back and listen to that. And we dig into what culture is and how it shows up in sales and different companies. And the things that I want you to take away is you can impact culture from the top or the bottom. And if you’re not happy with the culture, it might be time to make a change. There’s a lot more on this episode as well. Please share this with someone if they’re in sales and they’re struggling. And follow us on social media. Everything is at Sales Throwdown, enjoy the show.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the main event. In the D corner we have Clint The Cleaver Bigelow. In the I corner we have Al The Gambler Daniel. In the S corner we have Nan The Promoter Fallman. In the C corner, we have John Small Mountain Hill. Let’s get ready to throwdown.

Welcome to the show everybody. This is part two so if you’ve not listened to last week’s episode of what culture culture culture right above and below and if you’re not listen to last week’s episode, please go back and listen to that one first because this one kind of picks up exactly where that one left off.

Or fucking don’t do it, just listen to this one. absolutely if you like run with scissors baby if you’re

an I and you’re not going to go back and listen to last week’s episode, go after it.

Just because you told the D’s to go back, not gonna do it.

Every C is no longer listening right now. They’ve already gone back to the last week’s episode. And the S is just uncomfortable.

I love either or.

Whichever one you like is the one I like.

Just do you, either do it or don’t but don’t complain.

I’m not feeling the love for the team tonight?

Oh, come on. We absolutely love you.

Love’s back. That’s all I needed.

Just one small psychological stroke.

Exactly, there you go man.

Okay. So last week, we were talking about sales cultures, when you should make a move, how, you know, if you’ve got the right people, all of these other things and, you know, I think we kind of talked about this idea that if you’re leading people, you need to really make sure that you’re giving them the tools necessary, the training necessary the help that they need. So that way, if you do have to make a decision to let them go, you can do it with a clear conscious conscience. Right. But then, in addition to that, Clint and Al both said that they don’t need that, that personally,

Personally, personally.

Let’s talk a little bit more about that.

I’m confused when you talk. I don’t need that.

I mean, let me sum it up. All right. Shut up I. So you know when your career,

Oh no, so wait a second. So now you’re going to talk for a long time.

So, so you got you’re trying to develop or create a culture, right and one things, what he’s saying is that me and you, when you put it on us whether we have a culture to operate within, doesn’t really matter to us because we’re going to just go in and get it done, right? That’s our task driven gut that we just like you’re putting on me, don’t care if you have rules, or you have a million of them, I’m going to go do me anyway. So that’s what he’s talking about, versus some personalities need those guidelines and those checks, and that all has to be in place for people.

So hold on, though, right, because the way that you just described that made it sound, feel insulted, it’s not about being insulted. It’s about it’s about consistency, right? Because you’re in this role now. Right? You’re, you’re leading a team, and you’re making sure that these guys have the tools and everything that they need. Now, if one of these guys came to you and you’re like, you know what, Clint, screw you I don’t need your help. I’m going to do it my way. What happens in that conversation?


Can I bring up less than five minutes ago, you were standing out there indicating, talking to your brother, the process that you didn’t just jump into where you are right now. So there is a process that you have to…

You guys are getting this, think you guys are smashing these two things together? What, what I know about myself and I think what what we indicated the Doc also knows about himself is that if there is nothing in place, there is no culture, our personalities, are still gonna be successful. We’re going to make well we’re going to try right we’re going to go try to make it successful in our own way. And hopefully that along the way we develop the culture around us and that people look at us and say, Okay, well there’s a process. Let’s write this down. We’re not going to write it down for you, but you might write it down watching. That’s what I’m saying.

I think that, though I don’t think that’s just a D or an I, I think that an S or a C…

Let me rephrase. I’m saying that we have it more naturally. That’s That’s true. Yeah, I would agree with that. I’m not saying That one, I’m not saying you Nannette, are you John don’t have that or Bill out there listening because he’s a C, he doesn’t have that. I’m saying that naturally, our personalities thrive in that market a little bit better.

So I was talking with a friend of mine and he was going to become a DISC practitioner probably 15, 20 years ago. And we were talking about how we think about it now and how they taught it and thought about it back then. And one of the things that he was really interested in was the fact-drive versus gut- driven, because the way that it was explained to him and I really liked this is that D’s and I’s look at it at any situation say I can be the positive influence on the situation I can make it better, right? S’s and C’s, think, okay, not sure if I can, right, which is kind of it’s kind of the same thing, but the way that he was talking about it, like, hit this thing for me.

That’s that detail oriented part of it too, right. It’s like, I don’t know if I can because I don’t know all the details. Absolutely, where as m and Al, like I don’t give a shit. If I have any details. We’re just gonna move on.

Or I find a positive vibe in an equation that makes sense to me?

That’s a little more I than I was.

But he can be as simple as that. Or, or I don’t get it. And I’m like, Man, that’s a complete shit show. I don’t know what, right and I’ll sit on my heels too.

To be honest with you. It’s a little more attractive to me to go into a chaotic world that’s been unsolved and try to solve it than it is to pick up where somebody’s like, hey, it’s all perfect. Here you go. and hand it to me that’s not attractive to me.

I think. For me now, I think that I could pretty much, I mean, not work in any company, because there’s a lot of things that I wouldn’t want to put up with. But I think I can be successful as a salesperson, pretty much selling anything. Now, there’s a lot of things that I don’t want to sell and there’s a lot of, you know, culture because that’s what we’re talking about, that I’m not going to like stand behind and get behind and want to work in

But that’s not selling product or business that’s the that’s the people that are you’re working around.

Or the things that they make you do.

Track this, do, you know, report stuff that has no value to you right. In my arena, it’s about the the joy of the win right, the kill, the success, the the reward seeing that check, because I get checks in the mail and their big as shit. That is like I’m like, you know that turns me on. And I don’t guys I’m being serious when I say that.

So if you if you hated the people that were around you, everyone who worked under you and stuff like that, but you’re making the same amount of money. Would you be as happy?

No, no, I do. I love the culture like we, glad you brought that up. So yesterday. Saturday, brought in some of our part timers who went off to college and they came back to help clear up some filing, stuff like that. Love to see these kids come back in right. Ask them about how college is going. I’ve seen them grow up In my company, and it just makes you feel good. And they get me and I sort of get them and we get some pizza and just stupid stuff like that. But we really got some meaningful work done. You know, they put in about six hours and I was around the office. Yeah, no, it’s all good.

Interesting. I want to go back going back to like, part one, I remembered something that I really wanted to talk about is that we talked about in part one a lot about creating the culture from the top down, right. And that’s for the whole time. I know for a fact myself. I’ve been a part of this where you come in and you’re motivated, and we encourage the bottom up. Yeah. And people have kind of fallen, they just didn’t have that maybe that positivity or those wins. And they they kind of gather around and now everything falls into place just because you came into it.

Because I can tell you I’m not tooting my own horn, but I’ve been

You’re allowed, you’re successful. Come on.

So you walk in and you leap frog over every manager up to the highest rung right? Over a fucking softball team, right? So once you guys were all sales guys kind of grind it out, they want to do a softball team. I’m like, well, let’s just go ask the dude who can write the check? It’s not the douche bag manager, right? Because he’s going to give you 20 excuses. You knock on the C door, right? And you go, Hey, we’re trying to put a softball team together. You think we could we could appropriate about you know, $1,000 worth of funds. He’s like, absolutely. Why not? Go now, can I come back as the hero because I’m like, because they’re like, Can we buy bats? And I’m like, well, we got $1,000 budget. Yeah, I guess, uniforms, bats.

So let me go knock on the door again.

Yeah, okay. You need a bat. I’m like, Hey, we need a bat too. Why not? I was just there 30 minutes ago,

Nugget, call on the top at the top person that you possibly can.

Don’t hurt anybody. feelings but if somebody says, I know, better yet, let me back up another one. I always told no more than probably anybody in this company, right? Hey, let’s bring a barbecue pit behind a hospital and serve hamburgers, no regulations. I got more nose. But the fact that I was asking created this flow of an idea of let’s get out here and let’s get this done. And I and I would sit sit in the bullpen and go only fucking told me No. But at least I was trying. Absolutely at least one like part of like, and I wouldn’t run away like trying to pretend to sell when I was in the office, man, I would kick back like I own the place because I was working my dick off outside in the real world, right? I grew. So I go in and sit down. I’m not afraid of anybody. I don’t walk on eggshells. I’ll go I’ll throw myself off the First Bridge I pass right now.

Always the bridge.

Commit suicide right? shoot yourself or jump off something high.

Hold on, hold on. Advisory, we’re not advocating anybody commit suicide. We’re not doctors.

It’s called Kevorkian sales guys, man. Oh, you’re not willing to hold on. Wait a second, you guys are you guys are disappointing. Well Seriously, what? Sell, go the fuck home, or get another job, or throw yourself off a bridge? Why aren’t those options?

They are?

They aren’t. That is ridiculous.

I don’t agree.

Quit with the mamby pamby, man. You want to win? Win.

Figure it out right, change your attitude, but you don’t have to go jump off a bridge, just go find something else. This is not working.

I think metaphorically…

This is very I-ish.

Metaphorically that’s what he’s saying.

Yeah, guys, come on.

Here’s a here’s a key component of being an I, right, huge extreme statements.

Like, I’m exaggerating guys.

He hasn’t had his bipolar medicine toay.

I take no meds.

Let’s get back on track. Alright. So Clint started with an anecdote, we’re talking about…

I don’t know, why are you looking at me?

Because you said hey, going back to something I want to talk about on episode one

Oh yeah i was talking about you can create a culture from the bottom up, doesn’t have to be bottom down. Okay, you know so I mean think you bring some some wins, some positivity, bring that in and people people follow. Most people like that right?

But But let’s say you want to, how do you do that and not rock the boat too much to where you get labeled as the troublemaker.

One, you gotta care if you rock the boat or not. That’s one.

But you don’t care. Right?

Well, well, I disagree.

Some people, some… That’s that’s part of it. Right? You have to even, you have to even wonder about yourself if you care if you rock the boat or not.

Have you guys ever thought that I was a rebel rouser, that I wasn’t going to try to do the best thing for everything going forward in our group?


You say webo….

I say where’s the rabbit?

Don’t think he was talking about you. specifically.

I thought we were hunting.

I like that everything ends up being about the I.

Of course it does.

You get on your tangents too, mister. You get on your tangents too. The audience knows, they’ve heard Clint way more than they’ve heard…

You guys have talked, you guys are talking to mostly about Doc Al.

No, no.

Let’s get back to it.

Okay, so, do do I think that you’ve ever had anything other than good intentions? Is that what you’re asking?

Do I run around trying to damage things or do I run around trying to improve things?

Conversationally or other?

Across the board.

Oh, across the board. Because, because you’ll rabble rouse in some conversations.

I’ll poke some fun, I’ll challenge people.

You can be quite the tomfool at times, Al.

But relative to the business, like what we’re trying to do here, right, have you ever found me detrimental?

No, not at all.

Or trying to destroy the project?

Other than all the suicide references…

Guys, I’m glad nobody’s jumped off a bridge, I’d be the only one here. Three of you guys like cash it out on the same day. Bad Day for me, right?

I’m too vain for that.

Everybody’s got a reason for not doing, that’s all I got to say. Everbody’s got a reason.

So you know, you talked about rocking the boat, right? What? What do you give yourself that you go in there and shake everything up and you try to get everybody you know on your team or it’s either your side of the fence or the other? That’s not really, it happens, it does happen.

But you have to calculate those moves.

Yeah, that’s what, that’s what I was gonna say.

That’s part of your professionalism, right? every everything

Every, everything you do…

I don’t ever do anything stupid, everything’s a little bit tactical. I mean, I’m not walking in slapping the C- office around, right I’m doing my job. I’m showing some numbers. I got some points on the books. People are like, Who’s the new guy? What’s going on? Oh, my goodness, man. He’s a little bit older, a little bit gray. And I’m like, Look, I can f you up, right? And the next thing I know, things good things are happening. People were like, Hey, I support that. I mean, you get that little whisper.

So let’s talk about when it doesn’t go the way that it should go. Because,

It always does.

It doesn’t. It happened to me.

Agreed. But it didn’t happen to me.

Okay. Well, you know, it’s your world. We just live in it. #TeamI.

Part two, part I.

So I took a role and it was a non sales role. And first time I’d not been in a sales role in a very long time and was with a startup and the burn rate got too high, and there’s layoffs and I started to feel very nervous. And so I was like, well, I’ll just try to help out the sales team. You know, I’ve been doing this for a while. I know some stuff I’ve been around. Let me see if I can just help, at least being like a role play dummy. And trying to be very, you know, cautious here. And they, they started to like it. And then I got told to stay in my lane. And I said, Well, you know, we’re pretty small and you know, I think I can help and we’re, we’re laying people off because we’re the burn rates too high. What if I do it on my own time? Like, well, we didn’t have you’d be salesperson. Okay.

so people in a struggling company are telling you to shut off something that they see as positive?

Yeah, that’s that’s pretty much exactly what happened. And I was really trying to dig in with the guy who was my immediate manager or something about, you know, because he kept saying, well, I need to see more from you. And I don’t know what more is. So I would push back Hey, what do you mean by more like, what are the metrics so that way I know exactly where you need me to be. And he gave me those metrics. And then every time we interacted, it was still like, not enough. Not enough, not enough and I was hitting the metrics that we talked about. And in the next round of layoffs, I got laid off. So it so It doesn’t always work, you got to pick your battles. And you gotta…

Agree, you know, but if you’re in a strong, thriving, successful company, that that you’ve hired into, and you’re excited about being there, wouldn’t you bring your own innovation to the program? And if you saw a deficit, and you saw ways that they could be better, and you saw some laggers that you could like, bring upscale and you could create, like this culture, which is softball teams, part of the culture. Yeah, we’re sticking to topic. And nobody wants to go ask for the aluminum bat that costs $250. And uniform. Me I’m talking about simple things, right.

So in your opinion, I didn’t do I didn’t do it right, because I went too big. Was that what you’re asking or saying?

No, I don’t know all the dynamics. I’m talking about simply where I was in that you said, you might have been just caught in something that never was going to survive. Right. That’s true. And the company that I’m talking about is still there? Yeah. Right. Some of the guys are still there. So we weren’t struggling. Yeah, I was trying to find a way to interact, build a better culture, they were coming in and you know, there was this disconnect from the people who, you know, within the C suite down to the managers down to the frontline guys. And yeah, I just saw a need. And so we patch the gap. I saw some guys having a conversation. I’m like, let’s have a conversation with those guys. Made it happen, you guys.

You guys are talking about positivity in the culture side. But there’s also the flip side of the coin where people are culture killers. Right. And I see that a lot.

I think that the negative nancies I’m just talking about,

you know, just for UCL fuck you from the other side of the room. I’ll give you two that’s the guy he’s over there the pariah

when I when I first started when I was on one of my very first exercises in the Marine Corps. We were on a range getting to shoot these, you know, badass machine guns, right? And all I could think was like, How in the hell did I come from the cornfield, to this place where it says this is awesome right? And I remember this older guy you know and I said older like year and a half but Marine Corps world that’s 10 years.

When you’re 19 that’s huge.

So he sit next to me leaned against this pack and he remember him saying “God I fucking hate this range This sucks man do this again I had to do this last year.” And instantly my entire thought process about the entire what we do here when straight through the ground is just plummeted. I got man he’s right this does suck I hate this. And I remember that and I was…

Did it really or you just bought his…

No, I just, you know, because I looked up to him you know, I thought it was a you know, he’s squared away Yeah, just I thought he was everything there was to be that’s who I wanted to be. And then for him for me in my own head to say okay, this is I can’t believe I get to do this. They paying they’re paying me to do this. And then that guy to say those little words, destroyed my whole culture.

See, but okay, so that just proves our words influence other people. But we also have to be responsible for how we receive words that we hear.

What I’m saying is I think if if you said that phrase opposite to a guy that hated what he was doing, and he said, Man, can she? Can she get around the idea that they’re paying us to do this awesome, but what do you want to do you want to go back to farming and you want to go back to the bank? That’s a dead end job, or do you just want to go back and clean the barracks? I mean, but that’s how it works both ways. Is that positive negative influence, they both, they both really…

So when you had the nut sacks to tell that guy to jump off a bridge before he comes to work tomorrow, right? I mean, I guess.

But it is a good point to you know, like, Hey, man, screw you. That’s not my opinion, that’s yours. Go sit in your corner and cry to yourself.

What do you not liking about this?

But that’s a but that’s a very mature mindset to think that way. And I don’t know that there’s,

You’re going to see that all the time in sales roles as well. Right.

I agree, it runs…

The leads are shit. Are they are they? I mean, no, I can’t there was anything because because the company won’t let me like make any decision. Absolutely.

I’ve heard that maybe you can close this. Right, so why the company won’t give you what they’re giving?

Or they tried and you close the bad margins and you discount yourself into oblivion and you

Well whining is so destructive. I mean, there it serves no purpose.

Okay, I heard something the other day that 70% of everything that comes out of our mouth is negative, in some people is 90% of what comes out right? 70% just the average. Don’t be that guy. Right? if all you’re talking is shit, that’s about what it’s not or what it is. That’s on you. That’s not on the world. The world doesn’t fucking care. It’s still going to spin, sun’s gonna come up, it’s going to go down and you’re going to be in the same fucking place. Whether you’re talking good things or bad things. And I know that’s Romper Room. But guys, listen up. If 70% of what you would comes at it, because you listen to it first when it comes into your mouth, right? It’s true. So if you’re, you’re preaching negativity to yourself, instead of I gotta win. What’s my rate, hit ratio all The things we talk about. Change your verbiage, change your verbiage. And then you can speak to others with a clear conscience. Yeah, just the way I speak. You don’t like it, go jump off a bridge.

If you’re talking, I mean, if you’re talking like that, in that mentality of the negative negativity to your own self, or your family or to McDonald’s cheeseburger that you got that just bullshit only got two pickles on one and three, imagine what you’re doing with your customers sitting down in front of them, probably coming out pretty negative, and you don’t even know it. Right. It’s just your language. That’s what you’re doing.

Yeah. I mean, you’re not winning for a reason. And it could be a process and it can be an attitude, right? That’s true.

Both of those, attitude plays.

Self sabotage is definitely a thing. Right? If you if you are just convinced that you’re supposed to be broke, right, you’re going to make that happen.

Yeah, you know, I think that was one of my bigger revelations in life is when I realized like a try to disprove my own attitude and emotion right. So You know, sales training, you know, hated it. Why am I here? I know how to do this. Why and why in the hell would anybody pay for me to go sit in this stupid seminar and try to learn. But I think one day something clicked and I was like, you know, let’s just let me just disprove all of this. Yeah. And I it turned, right, I learned.

I will tell you when I first met you, though, you were the quiet one across the way. Hold on. But But you didn’t say you hated it. You were just quiet, you weren’t spilling 70% negativity, you just didn’t like it and that was sitting with you. And then you figured out what you needed to do with that right? Which is reasonable. I can respect the basis that we weren’t sitting up bitching and moaning.

People are attracted to confidence. If you you have got to develop a confident attitude and you know, and that’s, Clint has a confident attitude. And I have a confident attitude. C does if all their ducks in a row, but

Otherwise no. Right, I can be very negative.

I don’t think you’re negative.

You’ve got a team telling you otherwise I don’t find you negative at all, Well I found you to be a rational individually says here’s where I find fault in that yeah I’m good with that that’s not a negative statement. That’s that’s pointing out here’s how this could go wrong or where there may be there may be a deficiency.

I can be hard to work with. You know, Clint was like yeah absolutely you can. Because I because I am always looking for explanation right and this is why I you know, whenever they let me,

That’s not negative though.

Well it is if you don’t have an answer.

It can be perceived that way. Exactly, why you questioning me, dude?

I don’t have a problem with crushing when I have a problem is when I see other people spewing their own negativity defeating themselves before they ever get started with this is going to suck. Well, how do you know yeah, so now I’m gonna say lifting 100 pound bags of cement because I’m not in construction sucks. I’m in sales and they were short handed back here. Alright, against that everybody can make a comment. But if you are defeating your actions, if your verbiage is shutting down your action step wrong. Yeah, go do the action step and then report back. Right? It didn’t work out very well. And it stunk, right.

We’ve discussed before going into your client, talking to them. If you know simplest form, you have a headache and they don’t want to know about your headache, they don’t want to see that your eyes are pointing they people don’t you do not bring that to the game. You just don’t bring it because it’s your you won’t, you won’t succeed. People don’t want to hear it. I don’t want to hear it. I don’t want to hear when someone comes to me, and they’re selling me something. I am an S and I’m empathetic. But I I, you know, usually people are thinking about what they need. And if you’re the salesperson, you better find out what they need. Not by complaining about what your problem is that day. And I cannot tell you how many times I’ve heard people that I’ve worked with that complain, I have a headache or you know, just

Well, part of that is you though, right? you enable a little bit of that, because you are so warm, and you do care and you’re very empathetic. And when when you say that, how should they go? And it sounds different than whenever I or Clint says, sup dude how’s it going? Yeah, don’t care. Exactly. Right. It is. It is much more of a social nicety, whenever like Clint, I say it versus Whenever you say, which sounds like putting the hand on the shoulder. Hey,

So why do you guys say it if you don’t care? Cuz I do care.

Social norm.

I do too.

Yeah, and I agree. I mean, you You ain’t you said that before. I mean, like, just two seconds ago.

It’s a little bit different. I have to be careful what we’re talking about. I’m talking about when I go into see my client, if I ask them how they’re doing, I do care about that. Sure. But if someone’s coming to me and asked you

What happens when you get the actual negative response, it’s a shitty day.

Well, tell me a little bit more about that.

Yeah. Investigate.

Okay, so let’s dig into that. Okay. Because like do you really care why it’s a shitty day?

Yeah, I do, I’m there for sales conference, should we schedule?

That’s something that I miss. Right? Oh, you’re having a shitty day anyway, let’s get to the meeting. Oh, yeah, I miss that.

Because you compartmentalize very well.

I mean, what does that have to do with business?

If somebody says, You know, I have a death but it’s family. I’m like, well..

That’s a good point. Should we reschedule that? That’s a great point.

I don’t do that. No, I should do that a lot more.

Yeah. Well, because then that also goes to the

takes it away from them and then they have to decide to engage in that, instead of being hung where they’re at.

But there’s also like the jadedness that kind of goes along with being a salesperson of to Clint’s point, you know, you hear that that the day is not good or

Oh, stop the fucking train, jaded.

Hold on, you can be jaded as a salesperson. I’m not saying…

Go home, jump off the bridge or fake it. But fuck the jaded, that’s on you. That’s not on society. You know? Most people are out there ready to buy and you’re jaded, and you want to complain about them. Hey, you’re jaded and you want to complain, because there’s a bunch of buyers out there and you can’t get to them because you’re jaded. That’s on you motherfucker. It really is. we’re on the same side, buddy.

We’re on the same side, buddy.

I know I know. I’m just I’m just yelling back because it’s such a good point, news to me, jaded. Oh, I was like, I get it cuz there’s the problem with sales. I wake up every day so fucking glad I’m where I’m at. Oh, I so so

A million other things.

So going back to this role that I got hired for. I was excited for about three days. And then I had this and I remember clear as day first day, super excited. Second day, this is awesome. Third day, great fourth day I wake up and I’m like, holy shit. I have no control over anything. I can’t I can’t impact revenue I can’t in right then I think that if you’re someone successful, and you’re in this world long enough, you get to the point to where you can’t go back. You can’t go do anything else you. You feel that you can’t. I wouldn’t be happy doing anything else. I don’t think. What else what I do?

I was gonna say I can think of a million things.

I agree with John, I don’t know what else I would do.

Right because at this point…

It’s what you’re invested in.

Well, I think I do a pretty good job of sliding outside of my personality zone enough, right? Because remember C’s are not the best salespeople straight out of the box, you know, that’s not saying you can’t be successful as a C but you know, you got to work in the right environment and you got to have good mentors and good training, right. But that’s across the board really, if we’re being really honest about it, but I can’t think of anything else that I would feel happy to do at the end of the day

You know, I think as a as a C that’s a that’s a very calculated mentality. Oh, dude, I got it. I’m invested 20 years so it’s no going back now.

It’s not about a sunk cost though.

Okay, but isn’t that, but this is so good though cuz he can honestly he feels compelled to ask right question wants to ask the right question. He needs to ask the right question. Get the right response. Whereas I have all this fear and emotion tied to Should I ask this? Should I not ask this? How do I get to the crux of really doing the sales versus all the song and dance that I do ahead of the game?

So, Al, I’m curious. When was the last time you knew you were supposed to ask a question? Because like your your process tells you so your alarm bells are going off or whatever it is, and you just couldn’t bring yourself to do it because I don’t see you as that guy.

I know, I thought that when you when you say he did that.

Al does such a good job of sliding to the D and being task oriented and and getting stuff done? That he’s not

No, I fail myself all the time, right? Because I’ll go out of a sales meeting. And it will feel like I all I did was dance around like a gesture right? and gather information but not asked the really tough questions. And it’s usually centered around money and time and access, my ability to come in and do the job that I need.

I think the reason, for you and because you’re an I, Al Daniel, because you’re an I, is you have a tendency to talk so much and not step back and listen, and every time I go to a sales call with him that’s what I think always like oh, quit talking and be calm.

You did stop me the last one we were in on, which is good.

It’s gonna be a rough day in the office tomorrow.

No it’s good. I like it when I because I recognize and we talked about it afterwards I’m like, thank you for she was like next, like, which is a cue to me to be quiet and let’s move on with

Post call debriefs are huge. Right after action reports right is what is what’s called the military right you got to sit down and go through one day on it and and that’s the thing right. As salespeople it’s super easy to like, stick your head in the sand and get lucky and feel like

No, guys, no, I’m telling you, I don’t do it. So don’t do it. face the music after the fact and own your shit, because there’s no value to know There’s all this like insight and when people criticize you, say thank you. To learn. Just say thank you and then go all right, I can’t I shouldn’t do that again. Or if I do that, then I get the same result, which is less than off the bone. Yeah.

Do you take that kind of criticism well, Clint. No. So is there? Is there a certain level that someone has to be at for them to give you like…

Yeah, they got to be validated?

Okay, and how does someone validate themselves?

Bona fide.

Better, better than me.

Better than you okay. In in all realms, or just one realm,

Yeah, all. Oh, no, there, there are workarounds. You do it really well to me all the time, or like, you know, I really don’t like I really don’t like that,

because I’ve heard you agree. I’ve heard you go a good Good point.

Yeah. I mean, like, you don’t put you but you brought something to the table. So you didn’t just say, Well, I didn’t like the way you said that question in that meeting. Period. Like Okay. Oh, yeah. Hey, mother f-er, like, you got something better because a lot of people do that, right. It’s like, hey, How do you think our sales conversation went? You know, when you’re after action, you know, two guys go to the sales meeting. And you sit down you say, Hey, man, how do you think went? And I didn’t really like the way you said that but you know next time we’ll get them. Okay, well that’s not what not what we’re talking about but that’s pretty typical after our for a lot of people because you just want to blow up your buddy to make yourself feel better about how you did it. Doc squints his eyes, but I think that that happened, like, Oh, I don’t think I know it happens a lot.

I mean, for if you’re working with someone, whether it’s, you know, group sales calls, or whether it’s like an accountability, buddy, like they have to be invested in your success, and that’s not just want to bust your chops if you fail,

And sometimes you need to ask like you. So John does this really well, to me, he’ll be like, so when you ask that question, did you have a reason you asked it that way? And I’m like, Well, you know, honestly, did it come come off? Weird? I don’t know. I don’t know what I did. Could you repeat it for me? So now you’re working through a problem with me and you’re bringing something to the table and now we’re becoming a team, we’re gelling. And Nan and I do that. Yeah, sure, but a lot of people don’t, right. it’s just like why didn’t like the way he asked that question? I thought it was pretty brash. Okay, thanks. But like, what do you mean what happened? And they don’t have any better feedback. So, so yeah, if you’re if you’re in that culture and you have that person, make sure you guys are really getting value out of why you’re saying what you’re saying just don’t. So that’s why I say do they need to be validated yet for me? Because validation is you’re better than me you have something else to bring to the table than what I did otherwise. Why you talking?

Right now? Absolutely. Right. If you just don’t like what the other person did, but you don’t have anything that’s what I’m saying constructed to offer.

So I, shut up, I said it pretty simply, you know, you got to be validated. You got to be better than me. But that’s what I’m talking about. Right? You brought something else to the table other than what I did. If you don’t then shut the hell up because I’m still learning too, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Love it. Love it. Every day, guys, every day we get up and try to learn something new about what we do to feed our families and make our future more secure. And you should too.

And however you get that, right? Whether it’s whether it’s teaching the new guy, something on your team, right? Because you’re in that role and you’ve stepped up and you do and you’ve decided to do it or whether it’s, you know, going and sitting, you know, at the feet of someone who is like the highest performer on your team, like go be 1% better today than you were yesterday.

In healthcare, it’s see one, do one, teach one, right? So in sales, we should have the same moniker right? See, one, do one, teach one, meaning, you know, look at the format, get out there and try it, and then try to tell somebody else how you did it or critique back and forth because somebody jumped over your shoulder and said, the same things. Well, why do you approach it this way? Because the, you know, it’s Wile E. Coyote out there that we’re trying to catch, right, you know, or the Roadrunner. And we’re Wile E. Coyote, right and the guy’s got all these tricks and all these things that are popping up and when we keep running into anvils and TNT dynamite, exactly and like you like tunnels that shrink and we run into them, and our forehead gets hung up there.

This is the one time where you could say run off the bridge and you didn’t even use it.

No, cuz I really mean kill yourself, right? I’m not metaphorical. You should probably not be here. Wow, hold on. But that’s it. That’s a serious call to action, right? That’s what we’re talking about here, guys is how you feed and clothe and do all the things that you want to do. Beyond you know where you’re at.

Yeah, I was, I was talking about culture and developing this like day to day, want to get up and actually do, you know, you guys say you love what you love and imagine doing anything else. Not a lot of people are out there doing that. So I will say somebody told me a long time ago that, you know, you spend the first 20 years of your life trying to get this great job so that you can work it for 40 years just to retire on a boat, right? And you forget about the 40 years, the majority of the time and you forget to be happy in that 40 years. You spend it all for the last 20 that you’re crippled up. You can’t do it anyway, right? So you know, I guess my kind of call to action challenges be you know really make sure that you’re in something that’s making the culture happy. Like make sure you when you get up and you really love to do this make sure you’re making the next 40 years happy and whatever business you’re in.

I like that coming from D.

Yeah, absolutely, he’s spot on.

And I’m not the guy who advocates that everyone should go start their own business but if you’re not happy working for you know three to four different companies, then, and you are in sales, then maybe you should because…

I disagree.

A lot of people come back too, though I’ve seen a lot of people go start their own business realized, you know what, I had it pretty damn good, and I need to go back.

There’s what I’m saying, there is some clarity there. Read a book called The E myth. I’ve read it. It’s a short read, everybody should because people do things for different reasons. Right. You know, and being a high paid gun. Oh my god. Yeah. Well, that’s there’s that’s a great position. I will say nice. Hold on to that

The worst reason to go start your own thing is because you want more money, because you know, you can go find more money working under someone else and not have to deal with all this shit that goes along with like starting your own business. But if if your reasons are other, right, more freedom, more control, then then that’s awesome. And really honestly, the E myth is an amazing book. I read it after I started Adapted Growth. And it really kind of showed, I wasn’t trying to build a business, I was just trying to create a job around myself, right, which is something we’ve talked about, and went back to the drawing board on my business and kind of threw out some ideas that were paying me pretty well, I had to go fire some clients because it because it wasn’t scalable. I was the only guy who could do it. And I and I had to go tell these clients, hey, I can’t do this for you anymore, which was not comfortable and it sucked. But you know, I’m better off now.

The E myth is a good book for two reasons, right? And it’s like counseling. When you’re in a marriage that struggling, it’ll do one of two things. It’ll tell you to go forward because you have the right mindset or to tell you to stay where you’re at or find a better where you’re at. Which is like counseling right counseling should decide to do to stay together or should you to split up and if you split up what’s the best way to do that? Right? So so that’s a win win. The E-myth, yeah, guys get out there and read that.

Really good.

Who wrote it? Anybody know?

oh sure we’ll bring it next. It’ll be on the show. No, hold on. Everybody’s got Google, shit, you don’t need us. Just put it in there so it’ll pop up. It’ll be in the show notes. Thank you.

We put all the notes, all the transcription on there.

As we’re talking about this 90,000 people just ordered it off Amazon through Siri You’re welcome.

Bitch owes me a little green. Daddy needs at least like a car wash or something. Car Wash.

Car wash, with an R?

That is with an R.

deal washcloth

Interesting. All right. What else we got on culture because you clan have have just recently made this change right? You went from one company to a new one,

And I’m doing it from opposite ends, I think when I came into the last company was a all the nuts and bolts were there all the right tools were there. There just wasn’t a cohesive team. And, and I don’t say that I changed but I think I changed a part that changed another part that ended up domino effect. Yeah, domino effect into into our softball team, right. Yeah, I mean, basically, yeah. I mean, came in it was like, why don’t we have a one of the first thing is it was like, there’s a bowling alley right down there. Oh, yeah. We used to do that. 15 years ago. We don’t do that anymore. Like why not? You know, like, what, why not? Why not get together and do some it doesn’t have to be a bowling team. It’s just something right? It was like, why don’t we have a quarterly Friday afternoons where we go throw axes and drink beer or something. Something? Yeah. But like you said, Doc, it was just nobody had asked nobody even knew to ask. Right. So that’s what I mean is you might have all the tools in place, but you just need to be the first one to kind of prod them and push forward.

Know how you stand out if you have even a reason to go to the C suite. Ask a question for the frontline guys write better food, you know anything. And engage yourself with the company that you work with to make things better not only for yourself but for everybody, right? And when you do that, A) you’re leader whether you lead in numbers, or whether you lead in stature or longevity, you just became a you just went to the front of the line for asking a simple question to maybe somebody that everybody thought was unapproachable.

If you wonder if you’re a leader walk down the road 20 paces turn around if anybody’s following you guess what? Your leader if they’re not your back in line, buddy. mean Simply put, agree, figure it out.

So there are some things that I think people will think about with culture, right? That is not really culture because cultures were way more about how you interact and the things that you do and not, you know, other things right, because I know a lot of companies in like, well, we got a ping pong table. Well, the ping pong table was like That’s not culture, right? Or the kegerator in the office, that’s not culture either, right? It’s way more about how you treat your people. It’s a tool. I mean, it can be a tool, right? But go ahead.

Okay. He said he, he will tell you, okay, it’s like the water cooler, right? Yeah. When people talk about culture, they talk about being around the water cooler. Right? And that analogy and I don’t watch a ton of TV so I can’t exactly. Okay, so is The Office I knew there was some sitcom that sort of had that. If you’re not bringing that around the water cooler effect to the company that you’re with, then you’re just a number like everybody else is a number. But in unfortunately, I’m going to kind of go to my socialist roots here right which

Socialist roots? You’re from Texas.

Okay, so collective I’m just like farming collectives, right and co ops and things that bring people together in community. When you walk into your office, that’s part of the community that you spend a lot of time with. Right? And if you’re a sales guy, you’re automatically sort of a leader, right?

You think so?

I’ve seen it. That’s the way I felt when I walked through the door.

You’re a frontline guy, that’s for sure.

Yeah. And so you’re out on the streets, you’re out there. And so people were there to support what you sell. So you’re the frontline of that culture.

And everybody has an important role.

That’s my opinion.

I mean, well, I I go back to this all the time. When you start a construction company, it’s usually yourself right? Or you branch out on your own you start yourself in the first thing you have to do is sell something, right. I mean, that’s why I always think it’s funny. It’s like, the bigger you get, you always look back and be like, We don’t even need sales guys anymore. It’s like okay, well, yeah, you kind of do.

because you had to have one to begin with, whether it was you went on

and you had to lose some clients, right. What do you go back to doing?

That’s exactly right. Certainly. That’s right.

It’s a great analogy if your clients are always going to be your clients is always going to be satisfied.

If you can maintain and never want to grow and you’re not scared to lose anything, which is crazy. Yeah.

That’s a vacuum that doesn’t exist.

Your best client is someone else’s best process. Right?

So yeah, you know, you just kind of your I don’t know that every sales guy’s a leader, but every sales guy is definitely on the front line digging in, right? And you got to have those guys out there. Where I think we fail a lot of times in organizations is we let those guys kind of off the hook. And we don’t, we’re not out there. You know, beating through the bush in Vietnam with that guy with the machete is clearing the path, right? That’s your sales guy up front. He’s doing that whether he’s truly a leader leading the people in the culture or not. He’s clearing the path for he’s making it a little bit easier for your day to day. No doubt about that. And what he brings to the door helps create culture, right, bringing crap jobs for sharing and failing stuff in the door

His attitude also.

Because there’s a lot of companies where the backside of the backside of the house right the fulfillment, the delivery team all that stuff. They hate the salespeople, right. And there’s this stigma of you know, the sales person will sell and say anything to close the deal and then just leave it for the back office, right? So if that’s what you’re doing, then you deserve all of that animosity and…

But if you are a leader, here’s what you’re doing, you’re selling a project, and then you’re telling your support staff where the problems may exist, right. And you’re owning the failure of the sale. Meaning if the sale is if it isn’t going really well, you’re saying, sorry, I should have told you that. And then you’re getting better at working with your support team. Oh, for sure that they come in and they know it’s not perfect, nothing’s perfect, and they need that. But you’ve laid out where the land mines may exist, how difficult the customer may be, what their expectations are. You’ve been a good conduit for sales back to production. Right. And if you’re not doing that?

That’s the ownership thing.

Yeah. Well, on the other side of it, too, is like you get to a certain level, you know, structure wise, money wise, revenue wise, where you kind of split this backdoor team of performance to the front door team and the sales and you split that just because financially and accountability, you have to do that. So you put leaders ahead of those two groups, and that’s when the company splits. Right. And that, that’s how you become a VP of sales, just like you’re talking, right? Yeah, that’s what that’s how you got to where you’re at. But the thing is, is that, that they need to understand that that’s before all that happened. It was all one cohesive team where you sold it, you managed it, you ran it now all hands on deck, and then you get big and you you lose that mentality until all that fails. And you have to go back to that one room. Everybody all hands on deck. So if you if you have this big split division, which is something that I’m currently kind of walking into, well, it’s you know, and years and years of throwing the ball back and forth across fence now it’s your problem now you put the fire Yeah, you know, and the Damn it is Is that so? What’s the division line? You’re going to tell me that you have guys building the job you guys have you have guys managing it, but then you split it and now you guys, you guys selling it? What happened to the cohesiveness? Right bring it all back together. I challenge every, that’s culture to me. I agree

That if you sell something, the minute it gets sold, and there’s a commitment in the production teams, now you’re managing yourself, right? You’re you’re part of that process, even if you don’t ever do anything other than look over your shoulder to see how it went. Because if you don’t, you’re leaving it up to chance that you’d ever be able to call him that prospect again,

right it’s in construction it’s really easy to make because a project manager he’s not in there tightening bolts with his own hands just not not in a big organization right he’s managing finances.

And he’s reporting back to you to tell you how the job’s going.

So why is he on your side of the fence and me as a salesperson is on the other that’s that’s weird to me, right? So you got all these guys Looking at a project manager talking shit about the sales guy, and you split that line and you create this terrible culture. Well, all he does is bring a shit jobs and we got to manage them from the bottom up, or the sales guy’s saying I brought you this, you know, beautiful job and you guys screwed it up on performance that happens in most companies do you get big and you…

And you’ve spoken that about walkthroughs and people fly in and you had to solve for it.

Depending upon how the organization is laid out, that’s that could very well be a sales issue. Or it could very well be like a leadership issue. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that’s what I’m saying is somebody decided that they have a, you know, an operations as a CEO, right? guy that runs all operations, and they’ve decided to split under operations. That’s all operations to me. Right. Everything that happens is a part of operations, even the accounting side, right? Yeah. accounting is part of making all this work. So why these splits right?

And it splits because you’re a salesperson.

No, what I’m saying is split, it splits because

Because companies divide them up and decide that it’s easier to control control and manage from the top, from the C suite down.

But what we have to realize is that those are just metaphorical lines on paper. They’re not real lines.

Yeah, walk across, go through the door, sit down, have a conversation with production and say, Man, how do we make it better?

You told me a story the other day about, you know, trying to build some rapport, you know, with the new guys on your team. And Clint. Yeah, sorry. And, you know, they all, is it okay for talking about this? Yeah, go. Okay. So, uh, so they all didn’t like this one estimator on your team. Right? I think it was an estimator. And you’re like, Well, why? Why don’t you like him? Like, well, every time I go in there, he just always I did my job and everything else. Oh, he

This is the old company. Yeah. Absolutely.

And, and you’re like, Well, do you guys go tell him when it’s good. They’re like no.

Yeah, that’s exactly right. Yeah. So in that happens to and something we were talking about kind of in our was a before this was how do you know how to on in my world? How do you know how to estimate a job if you’ve never looked at the performance data, right where your performance because a book can tell you how to do this all day long. But if you’re not actually performing at that level or that data, and your estimate over here, of course, it’s going to fail. And that’s where that line that split and you don’t talk back and forth. How can you be cohesive?

And that goes so far past construction, right?

Absolutely. There’s my example. Right?

Yeah, you know, but that’s a great example.

It’s, it’s a huge example, right? If you’re, if you’re a graphic designer, right and in it, and you think it takes you an hour to do a logo, because you’re not tracking anything, you know, but it’s actually taking you three and a half hours,

you don’t know what your cost involves to fulfill a sale. So

So why estimate at an hour, that’s exactly three and a half. And if you get the job, you’re successful, you’ll be successful because you have it there. And if you don’t get the job, then it’s not the client for you go find somebody that will

And the thing that happens is that a lot of sales people just think that the answer to every problem is just to go sell more Yeah, when it’s not , go sell more, sell the right kind of…

Or cut your or cut. Yeah, that’s the big that’s the big one, right? Or here’s the deal, I hear that every day I we’re too expensive we’ll never sell…

Be able to go back to your C suite and say we’re having a problem here and it’s not on sales. It’s on the fact that we’re not profitable because our cost overruns, I got estimators, we’re not buying at the right price. What are we doing to hedge against, you know, cost here, our lumber, our steel, our conduit.

We’re using numbers from 30 years ago? Well, then yeah, of course, we’re going to fail we’re not in we’re not up to date.

So from a sales standpoint, and there’s where I press everybody, if you don’t understand all these other dynamics about your business, if you’re just getting up blindly, well you’re sort of a puppy dog, right? You’re you’re not running on the front porch with everybody else talking about real thing.

And I think that’s where in my book, I watch a lot of cold calling fail, right? Because you just walk in, you’re like okay, I got this screen. appdelegate is pick up the phone and say the script. If you don’t know what she’s gripped, you don’t know the culture, you don’t know what you perform, you don’t even know the names of your products. Because you just told, oh, I get through the script, I go to the next one. But if you combine with the culture and make that cold call informative, and you know what you’re talking about, and you bought into the language and the culture, that cold calls, you know, hit ratio just increase, it should for sure, they should just increased tenfold.

So, all right, everybody, it’s time for the throwdown.

It did go fast. Yeah, for sure. Alright, part two, culture ownership, which is also kind of like a subheading here, Clint, as a D, go ahead.

I think I spoke to it last time, but it’s about what you you know, you got to come in and create. We’re talking about culture and leadership, but you’re also talking about the day to day grind person, right? That you can also create culture, you can create a good culture, or you can create a bad culture. It’s kind of up to you how you set the narrative, I think. I don’t think I, no, you can absolutely set the narrative to your surroundings are. If you don’t like it, if there’s no room for you to grow in that, or be positive in that, get the hell out, cut bait, go, go find someone that will because I’m gonna tell you right now, sales people while you might hear the industry say that you’re a dime a dozen, well, you probably are. But there are people out there begging for good salespeople, right. And if you’re one of those people, I promise you, you will find something. Might have to make 600 phone calls. But good news is you’re good at that. So.

So to reiterate, Clint talking about the narrative, yes, create your own narrative. Know where your numbers are, though, as well, know where your company sits. And if you are, you know, stuck in a rut where your narrative isn’t being heard, or where you’re, you’re you’re not seeing what you want to see. Realize that you can find another landing spot, maybe it’s time to look otherwise or go, you know, The extra step and you know, push towards the C suite see what they have to say about it because all they can tell you is to hit the bricks. But you know what, if you’re really performing, they never say that. They always want to keep you. You can raise a fucking stink like nobody’s business like nobody else in the company can do and they’ll still want to keep you because you’re not just drinking the fucking Koolaid. So, be a contrarian, be a guy that’s not offensive, don’t don’t, you know, don’t don’t make bad things happen. But if you got the right positive attitude and you’re coming in there, have some guts and get the glory.


This is Nan, the S, and I just want to say don’t compete, complement each other. That’s all I want to say.

Good message there.

For me, this is not really going to be super applicable to C’s because you’re probably tracking yourself. Anyway, but for everybody else, it’s so easy to stick your head in the sand. And that’s not helpful. You know, Clint talks about hit ratios. And we talked about success rates and things like that. And you know, the do one, see one, teach one, we are dealing with people, and not everybody needs what you do. So don’t let that one kind of knock you off course, right? This is a game of numbers, you have to manage those numbers and manage your your behaviors of those numbers. So just be aware of that and understand that not everyone back to back C’s thinks about it, like you do with all the details, and they don’t need all that. So you might need to nurture a little bit more before you rock the boat. But in dig in, so awesome. Yeah, so this is our first two parter. So, again, go back and listen to the first one if you haven’t, if you haven’t listened to it yet. Or don’t according to Clint. Follow us. Everything on social media is at sales throwdown, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. And then if you want to take the assessment or if you want us to come talk to your team about some of these dynamics and how they show up either internally as part of your culture, or with your prospects and things like that. Reach out to us, send us an email, assessments@salesthrowdown.com and have a good day.