Let’s get ready to Throwdown.
Welcome to the show everybody. Today we are talking about how important it is. or isn’t or isn’t in some cases how much connection Do you need to the product you’re selling? You know, do you need to be passionate about it? You need to see value in it or are you know are you like the merc, you know, the mercenary that you can come in and just sell anything as long as like there’s good money behind it. And the reason for this is because I am very much in the camp of I think that I could kind of sell anything at this point but there’s a lot of stuff that I see no value in trying to sell right like roofing right? If I just wanted lots of money, I’d probably just go sell roofing but, man, I can’t think of anything more boring right now to say the guys who do roofing or bad or you know, whatever, it’s a necessity. I mean, you got to have a roof over your head right shouldn’t leak and I just have, you got to get it fixed, zero interest in roofing like like I wouldn’t even be motivated to go have conversations about it.
But but what if it made you millions of dollars every year? Still nothing?
The cash flow wouldn’t bother you? No, that doesn’t play a factor.
I mean, money. I mean, money is a bit of a motivator, but it’s not like the end all motivator because if it was, that’s what I’d be doing. I’d be good. I’d be selling something else.
So would you rather struggle with something that you are super passionate about? Because this speaks to our personalities? Yeah. Would you rather struggle on a day to day selling that thing that just you love? Mm hmm. Or go have the guaranteed money because I’m the guaranteed money guy. I’ll go sell something because I want I need the revenue because I’m working to get revenue not not because
I get bored.
Okay, and I can see your point.
Right? I need to learn something new, right?
But you also have to realize there’s no perfect product, right? Everything has a particular fit. And even sometimes in a particular fit, it can get wonky or turn itself upside down, like in our industry, the first, when somebody brings a new product through the door and says, Hey, do you think your doc’s are the people you influence would be interested in this? I go, I get the gist of what they’re they’re telling me about the product and what it solves the problem. But the first thing I ask is, if this is going to screw up, how does that happen? Yeah. Because there’s the value in knowing the limitations of what your product is, knowing the audience that it addresses. And then you make the decisions on the money and yeah, in my opinion, so I look at it from probably both avenues.
And I think there’s a so a guy has always told me, guy that taught me pretty much everything I know in this business. He always says if you’re truly love what you do, and you’re passionate about it, you’ll never work a day in your life, right? That’s his theory.
Yeah, I told you that.
That was good. He just slipped that right in there.
But, uh, you know, he, he’s always told me that and, and that’s one of the things that I probably don’t agree with him on is because the things I’m passionate about I go to work to get the revenue to do those things outside of work. So I separate a little bit.
It’s all about how you’re motivated, how you’re wired, I think, you know,
And I watch him, you know, I’ve watched him over the years in his business. And he truly is what he says, you know, he’s passionate about it, he loves it and whether you made a million dollars now, he always says there’s a cost of living, right, I’ve got to cover that need, and when I cover that need, if I can do that, while I’m in the business that I love, that that’s true, you know, like, that’s where you should be. Sure.
If, if, if money was not a factor and you could sell anything, right, like like the money was gonna be the same. What, what would you sell?
Man? Good question.
I would be I know where I would do something like on the beach or something, you know from a money standpoint, I would then start looking at environment.
Yes, anything that would put me into the environment that really feels good to me. Right, which is being able to wear shorts or go casual. You know, being where the waves are rolling in.
Yeah, the guy who wears scrubs almost every day is you know, concerned about, about about his his uniform is uncomfortable enough.
No, it is, but I’m thinking
I want to cut this the pants off at the knee.
On the scrub shirt. Yeah, those are fun and you wear them around the house and gardening and those.
I mean, I’ve answered this in my own head that question a bunch of times, not so much on the selling but if I could do anything and money wasn’t thing, I mean, I’d fish for a living, offshore, like I’d do charters. And I’ve always said that in my own head like that’s the one thing that always is a reoccurring passion of mine. And you can make a living out of it. And
I know a guy who does it, in Florida. Guy I grew up with.
That brings, I’m 56 and so I’m thinking okay, Hoping to be done here in the next, you know, five years or so. So I’m looking at, I don’t want to be completely done, but I want to back away from where I’m at and looking at Costa Rica or some of these, what can I sink some money? Have a because I like the interest of business. Yeah. And tinkering with business. And in, you know, there’s where I’m taking my interest. Not that I don’t like what I’m doing. It’s just labor intensive, a lot of hours that I don’t want to put in. So there are other reasons I liked it. But it comes at a cost. And it’s usually a time because now time is more important than money.
So Nan, I’m curious for you as the as like, how important is it that you are interested you see value in the thing that you’re selling? Right? Because you’ve been in healthcare for a very long time, right? Like, like, Do you ever get like antsy about like, hey, maybe I should be selling something else or in another industry or anything else?
That you said that right now I’m taking I’m getting my insurance, I want to become an insurance agent or realtor, I just want to so I’m started the process only too broad. You know, if something fails, then I want to have something to go back on. And I’m not crazy about insurance, but I can see even in my job currently, how insurance knowledge is very important. So I, I don’t want to ever do something that isn’t advantageous to others. You know, of course, as the S in me, I guess, but I think knowledge stretching yourself is really important. I don’t know something you said. I just think it’s really important not to just be, you know, like the roofing thing. That is completely surprising to me that you would have that opinion, but I mean, you’re just everyone’s different. I just think it’s weird that you, I don’t think you’re weird. I just think it’s, I think it’s weird to go Oh, I would never ever be able to do that. I’m thinking I think I could do anything. I could, not to someone’s demise. Of course, you know, like.
I could sell roofing right and probably be successful, I just have no interest in doing it. And if I think about something, and I’m like, Yeah, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t see any value. I don’t see any differentiation. I don’t see any of these things that like, get me excited about the things that I work on. So if I don’t see that in like an industry, I don’t see I don’t want to be there. And money’s not going to be the lever that makes me make a move into something.
Money is definitely not a lever for me.
Well, but then you also sit it in just your personality type to be more probably more into processes versus tangible items, right? Where you’re maybe more into tangible items because you build things right. So construction is take this put in here. What does that look like? And you’re like, what’s your process and how could I consult or be part of the solution? Because you’re kind of befuddled there. And we sit kind of in a little bit of the middle? Yeah, because we sell our time which is the value of our knowledge and diagnosing a particular patient and then putting them on the right path to recovery, or we sell the products that go into that recovery, whether it be spine surgery or, you know, some of the other things, tissues and things, accoutrements for those processes.
And one of the things you said is you didn’t want to be, be bored. And that is so true. The first thing I sold was cough syrup. And if that was the only thing I sold, I couldn’t do it, I cannot stand to be bored. So I think you know, pushing yourself tweaking who you are making something more exciting by improving your brain basically.
It’s kind of interesting because mean, you kind of have a personal correlation here of you do stuff for, you know, for the greater good of humanity. I know and I also kind of think that way with like building construction, especially like a, you know, a built a cement plant so that they can, you know, produce cement to make the roads. And here’s the here’s the difference between me and you as an S to a D, I think is you’re passionate, you want to be involved and you’ll never want the glory just to know that they were taken care of. Whereas it’s like, when I build something like yeah, there you go. It’s all for you, buddy. Like I did this, just remember when you walk up the stairs every day I built this for you
So it’s a satisfac- different satisfactions from different, you know, different outcomes. But ultimate of the same product or the same same endeavor.
But when you help people period, in the long run you you that what you get from that is great. When you see someone thriving, you’re like, cool. That’s so cool.
No, I love that as well. I, I think I I just lead more towards like service based businesses because I think there’s more room to like, help and build relationships. If I were just selling widgets, and it was like the same widget and like, everything was the same. I would be bored to tears, like, like so quick, because the thing that I like to do is because there’s some newness about working with a new client, right, and they’ve got their own unique things and I get to get in there and figure that stuff out. And I can be of help right if I was just selling like a prepackaged thing off the shelf that were supposed to fit everybody you know I think I would lose my momentum.
Well and that also brings another thought you referenced roofing and so you go back to your customer you know the homeowner whoever and you go Wow, what a roof and they go, huh looks just like the one across the street. Yeah, I mean how do you discern achievement? It doesn’t leak but I’ve had roof’s replaced and I’m like a little messy glad I’m not up on the ladder. Hot outside although those things and I’m appreciative of the people doing it, but once it’s on either like the color or I might have missed the color. I’ve done that on a roof before, you know change the dynam- and I’m like, I wish I hadn’t done that. But I got to pick it. So my level of satisfaction passes really quickly. Yeah. I agree with them. Versus say somebody paints something for me right? Or I see and I’m walking I’m like, Wow, man, I really love that painting a little different. Maybe I don’t know. You know, if you can if you can show where like you build this building and it’s unique, it’s different in your is that so you see what I’m saying? Little more artistry than maybe just laying down roofing.
But like the novelty of anything wears off, right? Like, I mean, I’m sure I’m sure whenever you guys complete a project, you know, you guys are ramped up and the client is ramped up and then, you know, six months later, it’s like, Okay, cool. This is just HQ.
Agreed in at the same time, like my personality just swings to seeing all the bad of that project the entire time, every time I drive by it, so I never seen the success. Yes. Yeah.
That’s, that’s interesting. He’s task oriented. Do you think that makes you push harder for perfection or closer to a better product?
Absolutely. And then the next time it’s like, well, we did this, you know, where somebody’s like, Hey, you know, like, for example, my sales team is, you know, filled with I’s, right? And they’re always like, Look, we’ve built 50 of these, you know, 40 storey buildings in the in the past 20 years. And, look, these are awesome buildings. Check out the pictures of this building, check out this and I’m like, well that pipe’s crooked, I can see the framing of the wall, you should have done this better. Like I see all the negative sides of it. But they’re both necessary. Both outlooks are necessary. Right for the next one. Yeah. So it’s like, you do need to stay positive that we can do this, but we can do this better. I’m always in that in that realm.
But I have a question for you how much of that is because you’re like a, like a maker yourself? Right? You know, like, you know, you, you’re a woodworker and everything else. So do you think that you’re more critical in those instances? Because I think, especially when it can be like, yep, I built that building. And it’s awesome, because I was part of it. Yeah, let’s move on to the next one. And then don’t sweat those details like you do.
To the point of, you know, roofing once again, it’s weird that we got on roofing but, you know, you build this building and roofing is kind of like the last 1% of the whole project that, you know, it’s either good or it’s not. It either leaks or it doesn’t, right. But it’s necessary to make that a successful project. Sure. So when I’m walking on a roof, I look at it like, Look, this is not what I do. I’m not interested in it, but a nice job guys. Thanks. Now get the hell off my roof so I can so I can do some real real construction, in my head.
Oh really? You there’s a there’s a snobbery in construction. Sure, absolutely. Okay, so trade trade who’s the highest on the on the on the on the food chain?
well, pipe fitter, because that’s where you started, right? So that’s why you think that yeah. So is that a true or is that just your bias? It’s true. We’re getting nowhere.
Nowhere like any other answer other than that you
Well I was an electrician when I was in the Navy and I kind of feel like that’s the higher end of the thinking man who’s in construction.
Talk the wire and Jesus
it’s red, black, white, or green.
That’s why I was an electrician.
I’m thinking it really must be the foundation. Because if you have a jacked up foundation, the whole thing
Hey, I got a lot of respect for those guys. The Civil guys absolutely things they can do these roadways they build out here. Yeah. So to go through these, you know, like where I grew up in the Midwest, the cloverleaf style interchanges, and then to see what they’ve done in DFW or Houston with the with the 42 bridges. It’s crazy. I mean, that is absolutely an awesome flow of traffic and, and the way they can build those is crazy to me, right. So there’s, but there is a huge like, because everybody’s passionate about what they do in construction. You have that, you know, I think I’m better. But you just put you know, it’s all competition push each other.
Well, it’s, it’s just, you know, we got an Army guy, a Navy guy and a Marine guy, right. And, you know, depending upon when you talk to us, we probably had a little bit of ego around our branch of service.
Yeah, not me. Never. Yeah, no, no, definitely. No,
I like the Marines though, that I was around, you know, well, I mean, the utility of, you know, the last time are there. They’re like one dimensional run with scissors kind of attitude. I’ve got this right.
So, so we have a listener right now. It’s about to accept a job selling widgets, how would you like to help them? I mean,
I think you got to figure out where where your motivators are right? Like, like, what’s going to motivate you to get up and go do the hard shit. That’s part of sales, right? Because, you know, you got, you’re gonna get bad days, right? They’re gonna, they’re gonna happen. And if you’re waiting for motivation to like, you know, make you go do that hard stuff, you’re never gonna get there, right? It’s like, when you’re when you’re waiting to feel like going to the gym, like, unless you already have a habit that’s built and everything else like you just never go. Right. So
You always think about it, though.
Well, yeah, I just think that that day. I think that that motivation could be different things, right? If you’re money motivated, you’re gonna make a lot of money. Awesome. That’s great. If you’re, you know, a refinement person and you get to go learn something new then and that gets you jazzed up. Awesome. You know, how do you keep learning so you don’t have to keep job hopping. You know, I mean, I’ve had lots of jobs and we’ve talked about this, I think in the past, but, you know, I think that all of that kind of leads me to here. But now that I’m doing this thing, and every client’s a little bit different, I have that newness all the time. So I don’t ever really get bored.
But there’s a nice key component to what we do in sales. It’s universal, right? That everybody needs some kind of we’re primarily whether you’re in healthcare, whether you’re in construction, IT, process oriented. If you can sell through a process, then you can pick and choose whether you want to be in real estate and work really hard on the weekends for free. So you can build the lifestyle that you want to live. And if you say, I really don’t want to work super hard, 50 $60,000 a year because all my major assets have been acquired. You know, I’m in the twilight of my years. Use the skill set that you have, and then pick the lifestyle that you want to live. That’s the best of both worlds, in my opinion.
Do you think that, this is slightly off topic, but I’m curious, do you think that turning your passion into a business is a bad idea.
Yes, it can be. I think there’s a real good book out there. It’s called the E-myth. Because why do you want to become entrepreneurs quick read. And it really is insightful for the guy who’s in this example, making birdhouses real good at making birdhouses, but then he wants a business. And he realizes he’s now got to be a businessman, not a birdhouse maker, which is where his passion is. So be careful what you want and aspire to, because you can get to the end of the road, you’ve put a lot of time, money and effort, and it’s just not satisfying.
Yeah, I feel like everybody that I know, that’s ever tried to start a business around a passion. That always is end up in ultimate failure. Because now you don’t have your passion more because it becomes work, right. And then if it fails, now you hate your own passion. Yeah, and you’re lost.
And you usually sink your teeth in so hard, and if you go down with the ship, instead of saying, I’m declaring bankruptcy. I’m getting rid of this.
And you probably drank a lot of people with you. It’s not just well or
Or you have to have some hard commerce. Hey, I didn’t get this done and it’s your your, somebody, you know, they came on board because they felt your passion, but you just didn’t manage appropriately. And then you ran out of money. And again, banks only like you when Yeah, money. Yeah.
And you know, for me that was woodworking right? Because I’ve gotten to a point where I could say, I could do this full time and make money at it, right? And I’m at that point where this either needs to be a full time hobby where I’m making this work, or I need to dump this hobby to focus on the stuff that actually gives me income in my life. Right? And I’ve always been asked, why wouldn’t you seem like a guy that would just go start a business? I’ve always you know, the guy that we all know is always said that to me, like, I can’t believe that you work for people. Like but I’m not. I don’t like that thought of turning in what I love into work.
Okay. And you just brought up an interesting point because there are people that I know and I’ve contemplated this that had their own business had a level of Success. But also look back and say I could have been one of the great moguls, I’m that good at it. I have a cousin who’s sold a number of business now he does consulting, in his biggest issue is he didn’t go the pedigree route of getting nabbed out of college with an MBA, getting thrown into the environment of climbing that corporate ladder like you’re doing. And then VP in like you said, I’m not a president, but you’re only in your 30s man, wow, where are you going to be at 60 You know, you’re gonna be in the bomb with jet airplanes at your disposal and hired like that. Well, you know what I’m saying? You know, in a however further that you go, it only gets better for you and more enriching, right? The rung above you has got to be pretty damn sweet because I know the rung you’re on is pretty sweet.
Yeah, you know, and I look at it too. There’s probably a level where I’d be satisfied at to not go any further because then it truly becomes a an additional stressor, or sometimes even make less right you take on a role that you make less and it’s more responsibility, it’s like.
That first step into management.
Well, and then you also balanced you have three kids, they’re still fairly small, right? What does it look like when they’re in their teenage years, and then they leave that. So there’s a bigger dynamic here, because job fits with family and family fits with jobs. So you’re you’re doing this balancing act. And at a certain point, again, it should shift that it’s not so money motivated as it is time and quality of life mode. It’s true,
because to that point, right is like a rung above me would be best case scenario for me, you know, in my company, but then the rung above that, probably making way more money at that at that point, but you’re probably the stress of running six or seven companies instead of the one. Yeah, and you’re traveling all over God’s saying Earth. Yeah, with three kids like there is a balance there, right. So there is a switch of the money motivation side to, to where you need to be realistic with yourself, of why you’re there.
So worked for a couple of banks. And when I went to work for the first one, I was super excited because it was not really retail anymore, right? Like no Sundays, you don’t have to deal with some of the stuff that you have to in retail. And then I left that bank and went to another bank and you get in there and banking is like a like a very tried and true you know, cut there’s not a whole lot of disruption or change or, or really anybody trying to do anything differently, you know, and I remember very clearly and I was like, Oh, we don’t do anything different here. Like Like, this is the same thing with like, a different paint job. And, and my boss at the time was like, well, you’re worth the difference. And I was like, what? You know, and like at this time I’m 30 years old and you know, not very confident in myself. I had all the imposter syndrome, my my kid’s an infant, I’m like wait, the only way I’m gonna make money is like on me, you know, like, like, I’m, I have to carry this brand you know, and I and I just hated it because it’s just like, We’re not trying to do anything different. We’re not trying to do anything innovative, it’s still money in accounts. Yeah.
Sorry, I had something about that. But then I heard checking and savings and had like, like a flashback for a moment.
Yes. You cold sweat pouring down. Yeah. Checking. savings.
Yeah. How many DDAs did you open today? Oh, what’s the DDA? So? checking account? Oh, that’s when
that’s that’s inside lingo.
Yeah, inside baseball.
That’s sort of like put it in my DDA
that goes, are you sure?
me sound Oh, wow. It’s so do you. Going back to the thing we’re talking about a moment ago about, you know, the concern of turning your passion into a business. Do you think that that’s a framing issue? Like just like, do you think that there’s a way of thinking about it and building it in your head so that way you don’t go down that path of torching something that you’re passionate about and really enjoy? Yeah,
well, I think that when you’re the worker bee In that passion, you’re going to, you’re going to set yourself up to cap cap yourself out just with time, right? Yes, absolutely. Just time and energy, you’re going to cap yourself out really quickly, right? So you have to, I think the first step is, like you said, frame that business to where you’re bringing other people that are also passionate about it, and you split the load, right? So I think to set up a successful business around a passion, you have to surround yourself with people that are also passionate in that to divide and conquer the load of what it takes to do it. And you go in because you don’t have the cash flow, right? You’re putting everything into probably everything you’ve ever earned. Yeah, into it. And it’s all you it’s all on you. So every mistake is on you every extra hour needed. The input is on you. I think that’s probably where people get hung up and fail.
I go back to read the E-myth, that is a good book. Did we give that away as a book, part of our book thing in the beginning.
I don’t think we did, well, but it’s a solid recommendation.
I think what we if you listen to this episode, comment on that, we’ll we’ll buy one book, right? Yeah. And do a little raffle. We’ll do a giveaway. Yeah, cuz I think it’s that important.
Hashtag Team I, he’ll buy it for you.
Not for everybody. For one, the first I to hit #TeamI. Yeah, you’ll get one too. So there’ll be two books. But I’m seriously…
I’m seriously hashtagging it right now.
You did not.
I had a client and he’s in the marketing space. And we were talking about like, where he was trying to go and what he was trying to do, and he was like, I want to be at 100k per month, right. And people normally pick these goals, like topline sales? Yeah. Or income? Yeah, no revenue. Oh, right. And I was like, Okay, awesome, is we’re kind of breaking down how many clients he needs that at, at his thing, and it was gonna be like 30 clients.
A month? Reoccurring. 30 Yes. Get to 30 and you can generate 100k.
Just recurring okay. Right. Because it’s a service-based business right. So there’s there’s, quote unquote, mailbox money.
Once you got a contract. It’s recurring.
They just stay there. You know, you got to perform. But yeah
yeah, as long as you do your job. they’ll stick around.
And so I was like, okay, you know, so we’re talking about, you’re gonna have to have 30 clients that are working for and he was like, he’s like, Yeah, he’s getting super excited. And I said, hey, I have a question for you. And he goes, Okay. And I said, How important is it that you get to do the creative aspect of this, you know, like writing, you know, subject lines and writing, copying everything else. And he’s like, man, I love that stuff. It really, like gets me excited. I was like, Look, if you have 30 clients, you’re not doing any of that anymore. Unless you replace yourself as you know, the CEO, which some people do, because they figure out that like, Hey, I’m a good founder, but I’m not a good CEO. And like, I just want to work. And he was like, Oh, I said, Yeah, you’re managing people that are doing that, at that kind of scale. You don’t get unless you’re very diligent about carving out that time. You’re not doing that stuff anymore. He was like
Just like Clint was talking about.
Yeah, I think most every company I’ve worked for, and construction has all started with one guy and a truck with tools, you know, and he’s
Really, the company you work for now.
That’s how it got started. That’s interesting. I mean, you’re talking about, you know, I get a little bit of money I buy, now I buy my competition on this thing. And now we can buy out other competition. And that’s the company I work for. That’s, that’s what they do every day. You know, the first company I ever worked for in construction literally started with one guy in a truck. And he worked for another company and said, I can do this on my own, which, you know, many of us all do break off and do that. But eventually, you’ve got to realize that, okay, now I have a company. I can’t be out here every day, because who’s running payroll, who’s running, who’s running this kind of stuff.
So you just brought up an interesting point. So part of this, you know, passion, love for what you do. But if you need the support of a company, for whatever reason, whether it’s because I got family, and that’s more important, you’ve got to make those decisions. Because if you think I outpace everybody here, and I do more for my company than my company does for me, that’s a good equation to take that, right, that motivation to go ahead and get all the extra off the table and put it into your own pocket. That then makes it worth the effort. Because there is a lot of effort to go out on your own. Yeah,
and it’s not it’s not a good fit for everybody.
And don’t fool yourself if you’re not good enough to do that. I’m sorry. That’s gonna Those are some harsh words.
Yeah. Because Because every company that gets to like a level to where like you’re buying up your competition and growing and everything else, there’s there’s 15 other people that try it and fail miserably because they don’t balance
Or they weren’t good enough at what they do. They had false bravado. They thought it,
I think you can be really, really good at what you do and still fail.
Oh, absolutely. It is a unique combination to go out on your own. Yeah,
The show that comes to mind this whole topic is the show Shark Tank. Right. Yeah, that is constant there. Because one of the things that I love about I think they want Mr. Wonderful, isn’t it? Oh, remember his name in real life. But anyway, in that show, he’s calling Constantly like do just sell me your business. I’ll give you a check for a million dollars, just sell it to me and I’ll give you royalties, right? He loves to make those deals and I’m, I’m on the couch screaming Do it, do it. Because if you don’t take this deal, you’re gonna ride this to a, maybe maybe you’ll come out successful, but you’re a small percentage, right? So take this and run with it and then take that money and and do it again. I was
about to say you never go wrong. Like you can go wrong. But if you’re taking profit, and you created that, yeah, you can do what you said, then you go you got to sit out maybe for a year you got to move the distance that you need to move. But these serial entrepreneurs, that’s part of their genre, they’re not there for the long run they’re there to develop well and then turn it over to somebody else that’s gonna scale it up or take it to the next level.
To the whole point of that show. Like why those guys are there is because they just constantly fill market needs, right? They’re not attached to these businesses. Yeah, they’re passing passionate about it.
And they like to see Success. Yeah,
They’re passionate about the success and the money that comes off of it. But whether it can be any shoestrings or the new way, and
But they know that they do stay in certain genres, which is good, because you want to do something you know something about because then you know how to value it.
And because of the experience that they have, they know they’re gonna be successful, which they can fulfillment.
So I like that too. I mean, I have a little bit of that in me. Yeah.
So to the point of, do you turn your passion into a business, I would say, to start a business if I were to start a business, it would be because the market needs the business at the time, that would be the only way that I would jump in. Well,
Well, everybody needs good wooden furniture, so why aren’t you why aren’t you jumping ship and doing it?
Because the market isn’t that needy for it?
There’s a lot of guys, there’s there’s a lot of mom and pop kind of scenarios. Okay. So
so if you know, if we came up with a new widget today, and it’s never been invented, that’s where I would jump in because Okay, you see what I mean?
But I still go back to I love sales. I mean, I’d like the the engagement. I know, Nan does I mean, you speak to that. I mean, do you like what?
You like sales? What is the reason you like sales?
I like the engagement. I like the challenge. I like the fact. I mean, I don’t like getting the door slammed in my face, but you know it’s going to happen. And it actually, it amps up you’re like, Huh, you know.
That’s the, I think it’s, I think it’s the role that has the opportunity to give you the most change in your routine, right? Because, you know, you could be in the office, you can be knocking out emails and follow ups and like, you know, managing all that stuff, or you can get out there on the street, you can call and you can do you know, your networking coffees or whatever those behaviors are, but it can change from day to day, right? So if you’re a person who gets bored fairly easily, like mix up the process a little bit, you know, change up the prospecting, you know, you know, whatever that looks like,
And you can take that process and change it you know, you’re not locked in, because you’re doing phone sales for AT&T say, you know, one of the big big telecoms, you know, it’s kind of like sit in a cubicle, but maybe It feels good to people who are successful in that arena. But with the same skill set, you can go sell Mercedes Benz or a high end car or a used car. There’s more money in that than there is a high end stuff. You see what I’m saying? You can take that endeavor into your passion because you now have the process and so you build the build a bit best case scenario for yourself.
I don’t know that I’ve ever said this on here or not, but I’ll be really honest with you that I got into sales because I felt like it was a the quickest way to the top of a corporate ladder, sales or money managing, alright, interesting, like that operations guy has a lot. He’s probably got a lot of people in front of them, right? Because there’s more operating people then, you know, the other side of the house usually, you know, otherwise you’re really top top heavy company that, you know, you take a look at anyway, but the point of it is if you’re like in my business, if you’re a welder, and the rungs that you have to climb
to be the foreman or the lead. And then you go into management, that’s a long game.
Yeah. So if I started at the bottom, became a pretty decent pipe fitter, did those other little jobs for a little bit, but then took a right turn exit out of it and got into sales, which eventually led to management. So now, you know, there’s guys that I worked with seven or eight years ago, nothing against them. It just wasn’t this not the path that they wanted to be on. It was the path I wanted to be on. But the opportunities that I have in front of me versus they’re still maybe welding in the field to you know, right now, most of them probably are, that was attractive to me. And that’s why I took that right turn into sales.
If you’re good at sales, and you continue to challenge yourself, you will always have a job. I mean, it is just
or one of the if you’re willing to face the challenges of sales and get good at that. Well, you said you can be a pipe fitter in you can come from raising kids into pharmaceutic. I mean, that door is always capable of being opened. If you have that. desire and the want to learn a skill set that’s repeatable. And monetizable. Yeah, which means volume. I mean, you got to sell enough of whatever you’re trying to sell to cover your bills and then have some leftover and you got to like it or not like it but be able to do
what you need to know your stuff. You need to know what you’re selling into that point.
Yeah, to that point is exactly what I was about to say is that in sales, you you learn a little bit about everything going on in your company, because it’s just forced upon you, whether you like it or how deep you go into that rabbit hole is on you. Probably for most of us, especially me and you, John, we, we dive off and want to know every aspect of every little thing, right? So what’s more attractive when there is a CEO position opened up? Who do you want there? Do you want the guy that knows one avenue in the company? Or do you want the you know, for myself, that was what in my head it’s like, I wanna I want the field knowledge. I want the technical knowledge I want the sales knowledge I want the finance knowledge, like so I’m trying to gain all those as I in sales is a great avenue for that if you’re trying to do
Well cause you get to interact with all those different departments where if you’re just out in the field, like you said, You’re the pipe fitter, or you’re part
Both great livings, it’s got to be what you want to do.
But at the end of the day, your utility to the overall company is not it’s, it’s there, don’t get me wrong. But if I find out the CFO, because I’ve had to go talk budgets with him, right, and I know the, the welder that’s out there in the field, because I’ve had to go inspect his work or tell him to change something. You’re You’re spanning the gap from the ivory tower down to the man on the street. And so it’s a great place to be in it like you, you’re more of a candidate to move through that company moves to the top because you connecting all the dots.
I mean, I mean, that’s, but to that point, that’s why I got in sales like Nan, you say you’re passionate about it, right? And I get that, because I like what I do, but that’s not the reason I’m in it. You know, I don’t go to work everyday because I’m, I love to just go out and sell something that’s part of it, but it’s not all of it.
I just love to hit numbers. I think it’s really a challenge. It’s, it’s like a game every day. And I just love that. You know it to me, that’s exciting. Not just going, I remember my boss used to not this boss, but my boss used to go, oh my gosh, do you know how much you’re gonna and I was like, I want to know the numbers I that was just way more important to me.
We all have different motivators.
I got into sales because when I got home from the Army, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to go back to school for. Right. And I had been waiting tables for a while, like I was kind of used to, you know, talking to people a lot. And I was like, well, let’s just go try this, right? Because, you know, you can get your foot in the door in sales without having like, you know, a big pedigree behind you or whatever. And then I got in there and I remember very, very clearly getting hired at T-mobile first time, you know, like a real like, full on sales role. And this guy who I’m still friends with, you know, we chat all the time. He was like, Man, you’re gonna crush like, you’re gonna make so much money in this role. And I was kind of like, yeah, okay, whatever. It’s like a It’s like a retail mall location, you know? How much money am I really going to make? Right? And so then 25 years old making like 75k, which is like, wow, yeah. Wow. Yeah, it is pretty sweet. If you’re, I can’t really speak to it now because I’m not in that world, but like back then, like wireless sales was the jam, right? Because
I can see that, you know, just, you know, phones were, you know, churning pretty quickly,
Right. And everybody wants a new one every two years and then accessories on top of that, you know, and our producer Paul, you know, me, me and him worked in the same company. I forgot that. We’ve talked about this at length, you know, I mean, and then in 2010, no, 2000 and what year was that? I remember in 2008 I go to work for AT&T like right as they’re about to launch the iPhone 3g. And it was madhouse, like
And couldn’t get them sold fast enough.
Yeah, well, and then Apple does a really good job of like shorting shorting the the supplies that way everyone’s talking about lines are so long to get an iPhone. And everything else. Remember that they camp out? Yeah, they had those long barriers and sit behind. iPhone launch day I was working at at an AT&T location and we all had to work 12 hour shifts, right? Like, they’re like we’re bringing in lunch you guys cannot leave if you need a like a bathroom break. We got people on reserve. I mean, it was it was crazy. I probably did, I don’t know probably like 30 phones that day. Like I mean, what’s a normal day. You know, may-, may- like three to four. I was like a it’s like a pretty as far as like customers get with like, actually, you know, and then some people need three lines. And some people want to and things like this, but it was just like, it was the smoothest day ever right. And as a C, I loved it because I didn’t have to go out I didn’t have to go greet anybody. It’s just like, cool. You want the white one or the black one and you want the 16 gig or the 32 gig. And do you want a case? And it was just like
Shooting fish in a barrel. Love it.
I’ve never been so happy to be an order taker. What other than on that day because it was just people lined up. It was it was it was insane.
You brought up an insert interesting point, if you can get your pipeline stocked up, then you become an order taker. Right? Yeah. And you then start looking at creative ways to build hype within your own sales community to your accounts. Yeah. Hey, look what’s coming out, you know, dropping hints. Have you been having problems here? There’s a whole culture to your evolution in sales. And it’s similar in all I think, in all aspects. When you first step out…
Yeah, I did that in this market. And Dallas Fort Worth is that I came in new, knew, knew nobody, right? I knew zero companies to do business with and it took me probably, you know, I’ll say a good nine months to a year, it takes a minute, to develop that portfolio and that portfolio was a very long list of people. And then about a year later of doing business that shrunk to like seven or eight people.
Didn’t you go on the warpath to get rid of your bad clients? Did you have that capability? How cool was that? So I built that portfolio to where
So I built up that portfoloio to where I had good customers and don’t call me but I was literally saying I’m sorry. I’m going to talk to you about this project what what do you mean? Oh yeah, I’ve always done this. And it’s like, look a one, I don’t have the capacity, you know, just being real and to, you know, you get to throw facts out there. And, man, what a great spot that is to be in, you know, it’s like A, I’ve never had a successful project, but the the ones that we have done, I didn’t make any money, or we made little money. Yeah, and I have option B over here to go do this project. I’m taking option B. The conversations at that level, to have with your own customers or potential customers to tell them no, because I’m have this going on.
I mean, it’s that’s the power stroke, right? Not in a bad way, meaning like, I just have this capability. So I’m gonna exercise it. Thanks for wanting to do business.
But it was created.
It’s not just given to you, you created it.
Well, so I remember very clearly, I was I was getting a little ahead of myself. And you know, I had a I had what I felt like was a decent pipeline. You know, I had about 10 deals in there and various stages and I’m super excited. This is right now or no, no This is when I, when I first got into the website business, you know, it was it was working with my business partner and so we had a we had a coach. And he was like, Okay, cool. Let’s take a look at your pipeline. You know so I’m like, Oh, yeah, sure. Absolutely. Right. And I have my laptop, I pull it out. And he goes, Okay, cool. You don’t have enough in there. I was like, No, like, I got plenty in there. And he goes, No, you don’t go get like 15 more. And I was like, Okay, cool. Right. So then I went and got 15 more, and I felt better, right? And I was more confident. I could tell people No, I could go for the No, I could do these things that are super important for like, you know, have having clarity in a conversation. So that I come back and I’m like, Yeah, got it. Now. Check it out. Now. He’s like, go get 20 more, right and like for like six months, every time I saw him, he’s like, yeah, it’s not enough. It’s not enough. And what’s crazy is until you have like that deep of a pipeline, you don’t understand like the the value the the calm that like washes over you right. In your I think you can hit a point to where you’re like you have so much in there that like anxiety starts to flare up because like you’re concerned about like what’s in the cracks. Can you service, yeah, exactly.
That’s a balancing act.
But, you know me, I mean, I was like on this path of like going and going and going and going and going. And so like, at one point, I had like 70 deals, you know, and I was like, Man, this is awesome. And I’m just disqualifying. Like, like a wizard, you know, I’m just like, Oh, yeah, no, sorry, this isn’t gonna work. We’re not the right people gotta go. And so if you are struggling with like, standing your ground and all these things, like go get more stuff in your pipeline. Like, go go prospect your ass off and get
Exactly you knock on some more doors, like prospecting, however you go out and gain your clients. Don’t reinvent the wheel. Just do more of what you need to be doing. Yeah. And make sure you’re on that clock working for yourself, huh? Push, push, push.
I’m a little interested to hear because what you just said is you you live in a market where you can go get 60 more, right. Yeah. So there is some some territorial stuff here too, that we probably should talk about because some of our, you know, people that follow us the most and they actually use us in their sales meetings and they talk about our podcast. And I know their business. They’re in the middle of cornfields, right? In banking in the Midwest, like, there’s just not that many opportunities. There’s not that many customers, you’re going to know everybody within a couple weeks. Yeah, in business. So your pipeline is maybe six or seven clients, right? And that’s the best you can do. And you have to maximize all the potential out of that, right? And how do you? How do you if you’re a potential, hey, I need to grow and somebody gives you. So that’s the realistic expectations that you set for yourself that I can only do this much, because that’s the market I live in. And you can’t shoot, shoot for the moon, you know, too quickly.
But in those industries, wouldn’t you agree they’ve gotten innovative in online banking and being able to pick up the phone and say, Hey, we’re a little bit smaller, but your reach can be further, particularly in banking. Now, it doesn’t work in every industry.
But there’s still a limitation there.
Yeah. And my thought too, is that you know, in that instance, I would tell all of them is grow the revenue, grow the bottom line of business that you Right. So you kind of maxed out your market on the sales side, maybe it’s 10 million a year. You know, now you need to look at the bottom line, and how do you get the customers, you know, to help you grow your bottom line underneath that sales cap.
That’s one of the that that’s one of the first questions I ask people is like, like, okay, of the clients that you have, right? In the deals that you’ve done, like, which one has been the most profitable for you? Like, like, like, where do you? Where do you kill it for your clients, and which ones like make you the most money? And then inevitably, it’s only like one or two, you know, very, very specific things. It’s like, okay, let’s double down on this. Right. And let’s cut all this chat, right, which is everything you talked about every time you know, you’re talking about, you know, cutting people out and working with the right kind of people, but a lot of people are just, they’re, they’re, they’re caught up in this paradigm of more right to see more clients, more clients, more clients and they don’t ever look back at what they have.
And a sales leader gets caught in that probably more than anybody, right. Because everybody focuses on that. Well, I did 32 million I did 42 the next year. I did 60 the next. Those are good numbers. But if your bottom line didn’t grow at the same level, absoluetly. So then what’s the point? Right? Because you’re actually in my book you’re actually losing. Yeah, and the company I worked at before, I would constantly beg them, let’s take a growth break, right. And as a CEO and you know, people that are probably looking to get out in the next 10 years there they want that as high as they can.
Well or been holding to shareholders and other other factors started to make it through
Making it look attractive so somebody else will buy you out or
buy the stock or acquisitions absolutely.
So there’s that level, right? But as a, you know, mid level salesperson, I wanted them to stop quit tell me to grow 10% this year. No. 16 is not our number this year. Let’s grow eight and grow our bottom line. Let’s double our bottom line. Right? Because to me, that’s the important growth so that you know, we’re talking about passion, what you do for me, that was a big passion of mine was to be able to do make more money on the same amount of sales and I really invested in that.
Yeah, right. And sometimes when I’m talking to people, I say what happened if you doubled your prices, right, you know, with like a lot of consultants and people that I work with around, you know, the process generation. And they’ll say, Well, if I double my, if I double my prices, I’m gonna lose some clients, are you gonna lose half your clients? Yeah. Well, we’ll no. Maybe a third, then you come out ahead. Yeah. So you so you’re winning,
Particularly if they’re all vol- if they’re, if you’re keeping the ones that are volume based versus, you know,
And to that point, right. Like I talked about this with, I don’t know if I’ve set it on here or whatever, but it’s so easy to look at the wrong metrics, right? And when you’re when you’re just pulling one metric out of the air without any correlation to any other metrics, right? Like you might be a million dollar company, but if you’re if you have a $1.5 million run rate, like you’re losing, right and I know a lot of people in the like digital entrepreneur space, you know, these consultants and stuff and they talk about their, their revenue amount, and I’m like, I don’t, I could care less about your revenue amount, like what are your margins and how much are you keeping and you know, and things like that, like
What’s your overhead look like? What are your fixed costs, all those factors.
Thats interesting because when I came to the company I work at now that was the first thing, it was kind of a breath of fresh air. If somebody sat down with me and financials and said, Look, this is what I need you to bring in a month, profit wise. That was a whole nother outlook on the sales that nobody’s ever really done with me before. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier,
You just brought up an interesting point, if you guys are out there doing the grind and your frontline sales individual, your fixed costs become your vehicle, your apartment that you live in, or house that you own. And if you start looking at that dynamic as you just enter into this business, and you’re not counting on fluctuations in your client base, you’re gonna be always stressed, right? So you know, the key factors are build a humble attitude with the money that you’re making meaning live underneath that. And then you take that pressure away. And then you know, it’s easy, right? Now you’ve got the time to build that pipeline and wait it out. Guys, be careful, don’t get ghetto rich on yourself, right? Don’t get drunk on the little bit of Kool Aid that’s in the bottom of the cup, make sure the cup is full.
And then a virus comes around and you’re screwed.
One little blip and you sit here holding your breath thinking, how am I going to make all my payments? Whereas otherwise, you know, if it’s all paid for, you’re now saying my my overheads just my variables, right? How much electricity I used, how hot or cold was it? And how did the thermostat water and food?
I mean, I worked with a coach and we went through this process, like, okay, what’s your monthly nut? Right? And how much do you need to make? And then what are the annual cost and divide that by 12 and then divide that by, you know, 30- 22 working days in a month or whatever, and it’s like a, like, when you get out of bed, you’re already this far behind, right? And if that doesn’t motivate you, then you’re gonna struggle, right.
Well in in what happens you’d be amazed at the number of people that don’t even know what those numbers are. And you’re more in the genre of wanting to know, I tend to just go well, okay, there’s this much. So I know what my cushion is. So so I’m at a point where I’ve got some variability as long as there’s this much money in the bank. I know I’ve got six months to a year where I could make it. Yeah,
yeah. And to the point of like, the passion project turning, you know, being an entrepreneur, taking that passion project. It’s actually funny because what we just talked about is why I didn’t dive forward on the woodworking side, right? Because I knew at that point that I’m doing this as a hobby, and I’m Yes, I’m selling stuff. But I’m selling it. I’m not putting my own time on it, right. This is a hobby, so I don’t count my time and the hourly rate that I put into this, so the profit Oh, man, so so to that point, it’s like I bought materials and then whatever, I could sell everything after that was all profit. Yeah. And so I could sell a table at $600 where once I put my time in there, and all my overhead the details. Now it’s a $3,000 table and who’s gonna buy the 600 table for $3,000 right. And those realistic metrics, you know, on the front end is like, it’s just not possible.
So that’s a hugely important point, when when we were starting the website company, we had a team of developers, right and talking about, like, the black holes that I go in, you know, Geof, my business partner was always you cannot go learn how to be a website developer, like, we do not have time for that. Because I would want to know more, right? Because I’m like, if I know more than I can, I can sell better, you know, and all these things, which is not really true. But there are so many of these people that are like starting the entrepreneurial thing. And what they do is they’re not counting their time, right? So the best thing we did was like, it framed it as a business for me, right? Because I couldn’t really just, well, you know what, I’ll throw another couple of hours in this because it’s going to make them happier, like every hour that we did had a hard cost associated with it. And that forced me to really kind of treat it more like a business and when you’re, you know, a consultant, if you’re like a creator or a graphic designer, you know, or something like these, you’ve got, and you want to be successful. You really have to treat it as As a business, you know, and you got to be thinking about your time. And one of the best things you can do is like, outsource that stuff early so that we it forces you to…
Or you get into that pattern, right? Yeah. So that you focus on your profit centers or the actions that make you profit and make you money. And then the delegation of the service component or the design component, those are those are outside that sales realm. They’re more the actual work that needs to be done. Yeah, that you sold to the client. Yeah, I mean, those are big factors that you have to distinguish. You got to keep them straight in your mind. Absolutely. Because it’s easy to fool yourself. We’re just prone to want to do that.
Well, the you know, we’ve talked about this book a couple of times on this episode, but the E-myth is about that very, very thing, right? Because the guy who’s building birdhouses, right he gets super busy and then he’s like, Oh my god, I don’t have to do this anymore. Let me go hire someone else. Right and then a lot of the book is about how people delegate just by this is yours, now go get it. By abdication. I don’t want to know anything. You just show me the results. No process. There’s there’s none of these things that
Are checks and balances are things that can be give you insight into other people around you and the success they’re either having, doing the process or what you design.
And then what what normally happens is people don’t outsource the thing that they love because they want to hold on to that. So what they do is they they outsource the things that they’ve been kind of hodgepodging and not not not getting fulfillment from which is not a bad thing. But then what happens is you’ve got expectations about how you want that kind of stuff done if you’ve been doing it for a while and if you you know delegate just by abdication and say, cool, go do this. There’s so much opportunity for and this
Underperformance and mistakes
Or just like a mismatch in how the process works right and then you get pissed at this person and then you fire them and then you got to do it all again and it’s just like you know, there’s better ways of doing these kinds of things. What time is it? Oh yeah, let’s let’s Throwdown.
This has been a pretty wide, rambling, you know. Passion, delivery, you know, how tied do you need to be, completely unusual for us, to entrepreneur, you know, all of those things. So Clint, what do you what are your thoughts for for Team D?
Yeah. So if your DISC profile reads in that D range heavily, you’re probably not asking yourself a lot of why questions on why you’re doing this. How do you feel about it, it’s just a gut-driven, I’m great at this, and I’ll be better than anybody else has ever done this. You kind of got that big head about it. I would challenge you. If you feel that you really don’t know where you stand on the passion side of it, start asking questions, why you’re going to work every day. And you’ll go down these subcategories down this rabbit hole, and eventually you’ll get to a certain thing. So if I did that, in my own head and my own business, I would get down to one of these days I want to retire young and fish my days out on the on the open sea, right? That’s my why’s at the end of it. Why do I do this every day? Well, I want to get there. Why do I do that? Well, because I want to get to this point. So if you don’t know where you stand, and you don’t know the answers, just literally you could jot it down or just do it in you head. Take 30 seconds, but you’re eventually going to get to a why. And that’s probably your passion. And what you do to get there, how you get there, you need to figure that out and map it out. So maybe you don’t love the business you’re in, but it’s a means to an end to get to what you want to do for the rest your life. So yeah,
and some people are totally okay with that, right? Like, I, I can’t, I can’t get motivated about that far out, right, I need to have some some interesting thing that I’m doing, which is kind of what we’ve been talking about this whole time. Al for I’s?
I think that if you’re in sales, you’re an entrepreneur. I mean, it’s an entrepreneurial endeavor. And it becomes your book of business, which is your business at that point. Now, you’re paying royalties up to your company or vice versa. They’re paying royalties down to you for the business that you’ve you’ve brought in. So you are an entrepreneur and it should have that kind of, you should have that mindset and if if that creates passion, and intensity and desire Then you’re in a good place. If it doesn’t, if it scares you, terrifies you, and you can’t get past all of that, or whatever the hurdles are, you’re gonna have problems in this industry. So, so face that, understand yourself first, and then apply your understanding to the, you know, whatever your product or business line or field that you want to get into. It’s all out there, go get it.
So, we’ve been talking a lot about passion. And I, in other word, desire to me desire is the starting point of achievement. So if you want to meet your desire, your passion, you have to push yourself take risk, and then you’ll have an achievement. But, you know, looking at a widget and going well, I can’t do it. I that’s what I love what Clint said. You know, just think with the end in mind. I’ve heard that before. But I think that’s like really good advice. driving down the street and in sales. I think you Now you just have to really look at the big picture.
Wow, okay. For team C, I guess two nuggets. You know, the first thing is, I feel like most people, when they get into the entrepreneurial thing, they can’t shut up about it and they’re going around telling everybody that they should be an entrepreneur. And I disagree with that, because it’s not for everybody. I do agree with with Al’s point that if you can sell you’re closer to being an entrepreneur and like and like having the skill set that is super important because until you hire someone else to sell you are the salesperson like and that is terrifying. And I think I think that if sales was a little bit more approachable than we would have a lot more cool people doing really cool things because they wouldn’t be terrified of and I got a really cool idea but like I don’t want to sell, right so you know, not not everybody’s a candidate for it. But that’s okay. The other thing that I think is really important is like how you frame your success, right? If the only way you win is when you get a yes from a prospect. You are going to have like some bad bad days, right? Because then every no is more hurtful. It’s personal and, and everything else like this. So, you know, there are levers around that right for me, I’m a process guy, right? If I follow my process and I get a No, I’m good. I don’t care. Let’s go on to the next one, right? Whereas if I get it, yes, but I didn’t follow my process, and I got lucky. I’m pissed at myself. Like, like, I’m like, man, wow, we know this, you know, because I’m a process guy. So watch how you’re framing stuff in your value and kind of, you know, make sure that you’re looking at it the right way, because you’re not going to get a yes from everybody. So don’t make that your your successful thing. Yeah, nice. Awesome. All right, everybody. So if you are on social media, as I think pretty much everybody is in one form or another, follow us everything is at Sales Throwdown. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, if you have not taken this assessment and you’re not sure where you are, or if you’re thinking about starting something and you’re not sure in which one of these seats you sit, the assessment will help you tremendously. So if you want to take one you want to take like a real one and not one of the free ones. Send us an email firstname.lastname@example.org
what you got On the social media side, we have been putting out, if you haven’t checked us out on Instagram, we are putting out some videos of us kind of in our lives, outtakes you know, little struggles or one minute videos of struggles that we’re deal with every day. Those are just important to comment on too so we can get some feedback there. So check this out. And
And don’t forget, we will be giving the E-myth to one of our listeners. So make a comment relative to this episode. And we’ll put in the hat for the drone, and we’ll announce who won and they can do the endzone dance in their own.
And we’re going to very, very quickly do a giveaway for one of the assessments, right? So, you know, trying to grow the audience and everything else like this. So be on the lookout for that. And the more you share, the more entries you get. And if you win, you’ll get to do the assessment and one of us will be on the phone with you to go over that information to really make sure that you understand kind of what you’re looking at. Yeah, and the option,
Yeah, and the option, just so you’re aware out there that we will always you know, work We would love to take some phone calls. We would love to come to your business. Talk to you, you know, relatively if it’s Yeah, don’t be afraid to reach out. Sure, but we’d love to look at that with you as well. Awesome.
All right, everybody. Have a great day. Go sell something.