Episode 51: Selling and Storytelling: How DISC Plays a Part

Episode 51


Let’s get ready to Throwdown!

What’s up everybody, Sales Throwdown. We are back. We’re talking tonight about using stories as sales techniques, right, is kind of how we were talking about it and we were we were getting riled up is we’re kind of sitting here pre-gaming, and we’re gonna hop right back in. And Clint was talking about how using stories and bonding and rapport, right when he’s just getting to know somebody of telling a story to, like almost like a pattern interrupt.

Yeah, yeah, sometimes or just a discovery, right? Because you don’t know. Maybe it’s your first phone call. Or you’ve done business through emails, right? That happens to me all the time where I’ve emailed somebody back and forth 100 times I know nothing about them. And and now I gotta have a phone call. Because it’s just gotten to that point, right where I just need to talk through it. I don’t, I can’t do this anymore in word form. So you know, feeling them out, figuring out what personality they are, what what pattern they like to speak in. You know, sometimes it’s a quick, a quick story, hey, the other day I was at the grocery store, you’ll never guess what happened to me and see how they react to it, right? Because they take your side, take their side, all these little indicators start pushing them into a personality corner that you can start to deal with and, and, you know, it’s it is kind of a bullshit sales pattern that you get into but, but it works and, and that’s all that matters at the end of the day for me.

So question about that right because I’ve been thinking about a lot of the stuff and you say a bullshit sales tactic but

yeah, because if you if you’re knowledgeable about any of it, you pick it up, right? That’s what I call bullshit salesman.

Okay, but but here’s the deal. I mean, is the difference just in your intention then? Because like whenever I hang out with my friends, right, I mean, I tell them stories. They tell me stories. I mean, I mean, we do this stuff, and it’s not ever viewed as anything other than just like ribbing and storytelling.

Yeah, and I call it bullshit sales. You know, because I’m I’m literally doing it for the sales, the conversation, right? I’m trying to move it down the sales funnel so to speak, versus where my friends, I actually truly want them to know what I’m saying and care about what I’m saying and vice versa. So, it’s a little different.

But Clint, but don’t you want your clients and people you do business with to do the same but just in a different category? Like the business side versus the personal side?

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. So it’s not that one’s bullshit and one’s not, one’s personal and one’s business, but they sometimes follow the same format of, hey, let me tell you about this or did you know whatever your storyline is, and then invite them into the story with their own point of view.

Yeah, and and stories and, you know, pattern interrupts things like that. I did it today. Quite a few times. There’s a guy that kept calling me about a bid and he just kept having question after question, and he’s a old school guy that didn’t throw it in an email like most people would, and you get this email chain back bouncing back and forth. He wanted to just call you every time he had a question, which was, hey, that’s great. I love it. But by the fourth or fifth time calling me, you know, where most people be like, this guy won’t leave me alone. You know, I’m more of the goddang how bad did I screw up this time? You know, that’s how I found this guy. Or, you know, hey, hey, Pat, how the hell are you What’s going on? It just kind of breaks up that that business tension. And so, you know, whether you use a story or, you know, different phrasing than everybody else for us, it all it all shifts the conversation to sales a little better.

Yeah. And then, you know, because I’m feeling very Nan-ish today because we you know, we’re talking about how we do this with our friends, but we don’t really do it with our prospects. And then I’m kind of like in the back of my head I’m like, so it was the secret just making all of our prospects like our friends? Which sounds like a very Nan thing to say.

God, I would treat the I would treat all my prospects like shit then.

Nan, I mean, how do you think about all this?

Well, first of all, if you’re not telling a story, what are you doing it? let’s identify that. So if you’re not telling a story. You’re basically just telling someone what you want them to hear. And it’s not going to be very interesting. By telling glory, you’re getting pain a lot easier. I’d like to never retain that cough sound ever. So do you see what I’m saying? Like, yeah, that’s a good point. Help people retain better, you know, they’re, you’re not just, you’re not just telling them a little bit of information or a lot of information in nauseum. You’re, you’re telling, you know, this, you’re you have a beginning. You know, you’re going to well, man, we all know what a story is. You know, you have that whole process that helps people retain and then you can also So you can ask questions through it as well. So you’re not just asking a question.

That makes good sense, Nan, I will tell you that there is a way to tell these stories in a meeting or on the phone that one sounds like because there’s a lot of sales training out there that will tell you to use stories, right? Get interaction with your customer, it’ll they will tell you that, hey, use a user story from another customer that you’ve done in the past and interjected in the conversation. So they know that you’re kind of a trustworthy source. And what you’re saying is bullshit. But there’s a difference between saying things like, let me let me slow you down. And I’m going to tell you about an old customer of mine and how we did this project together. There’s that way, or you could just simply say, and I have to do this all the time, I have to stop myself and just say, hey, look, we’ve done this project in the past, and it’s worked out great. And here’s how we did it. Right. The same story. But I don’t sound like the guy in the, the used car salesman on the used car lot, right? And there’s just such a. And that’s where people I think you follow the book, the books got the great template and the great ideas, but you’ve got to make it in your own voice and how you would, and to Nan’s point, like how you talk to your friends, right? That’s how you should talk to them in the same, same language.

Oh, that’s a nugget for me, actually. Right? Because Because I tell a lot of stories, you know, when I’m when I’m selling people, or talking to them, or, you know, doing, you know, all the things that I do, and it’s a slight, it’s still slightly different, because they still have a little bit of an agenda of like, oh, let me let me help you out and give you this little bit because this is what’s customary, right? Because I’ve been kind of thinking about it as these stories are ways of proving that you’ve been here before, and that’s what most people actually need. Right? Because it’s that trust that you’ve gone through this and you know what you’re talking about.

So what that makes me think of is in life, aren’t we supposed to treat everyone equal? Well, you know, so then you look at that and you go, Well, how do I treat a complete stranger? equal as I do my child, for instance? Well, you That’s why a story is so very vital, the vital because you aren’t just thinking you’re not just sitting there thinking, how am I going to get them? You know, you’re if you treat everyone as Sorry, I mean, I don’t know, I saw that. I’m not you know, in the Bible, it says that treat. Be kind to your neighbor, do on to your neighbor, be that and the reason is, because if you treat everyone kindly, then you’re not screwing anyone, you’re not, but it’s really hard to do. But if you can pull people in with kindness and the only not the only way but the best way to do that is using a story you know, like, so how Why would you treat a client any different than you would someone else You know, it makes me think Then why? What you know, I’ve told this story before but my best friend says I would never she’s VP for American Airlines and she’s like I’m, I couldn’t sell I can’t believe you are in sales. And I’m like baloney, you are in sales, you’re in sales with your kids, you’re in sales with your friends, you’re in sales with clients. You’re you are always trying to convince someone of your opinion of what you want them to to buy from you. I mean across the board, I mean, they come in how often you you are trying to sell to your child to eat the healthy items, you know, as opposed to the ice cream. So crawly selling and wide. Why do it any other way other than using a metaphor you know that that is is going to pull them in and they’re going to not just look directly at what you are trying to, you know, shove down their throat or whatever it is, you know, you’re you’re giving them you’re enticing them through story. It’s just

So Nan though, speak to the mechanics of that, though, you know, I mean, I understand what you’re getting at. So from the mechanics of the conversation, what does that look like on your end? meaning how do you how do you start that engagement and utilizing the story or, you know, along the lines that you just described?

Okay, so, um, this afternoon, I went into a neurosurgeon that I’ve never gone into before, just in hopes of, you know, enticing them, never met them. And I quickly realized, so right now in sales, the big thing is, oh, we’re not really seeing anything. They can’t see your smile. You know, they can’t, there’s just nothing very enticing. So, you use it, you start telling the story of what’s going on in my life, what’s going on in your life. I mean, it’s that simplistic in the beginning you’re telling oh my goodness my cat always thinks he has to get on that he does this. So does that make any sense I’m that’s super simplistic but my point being that you engage them with what might the story of why I’m here today. I’m not crazy about the masks, you know, whatever it is. I don’t want to

So that’s a good that’s a good point, man. And that’s one that that I use every day is is the mask right? That we’re all or some wearing some not wearing? right but it’s like, I could say a phrase like, pay the, you know these masks. These masks suck, right? And you’re gonna get all kinds

Did you just look up his butt?

Check it, oil change. We

We just lost the kid-friendly rating we had on this thing guys. Damn it. Get it together.

We never, we never…

I gotta go change the setting on YouTube right now.

I love what Clint is saying so what can we get back there? Because it’s so true so a story you’re not talking about some you know fairy tale story you’re just using this, I need to get a box for this cat, I’m so sorry. And so anyway back to clan I apologize clan for the cat and everything but that’s exactly right the story you know when and then when you progressed in your your time with your client your story is gonna grow into a much more interesting but in the beginning you do have to start with as Clint said, the simplicity of gosh Can you believe we’re wearing a mask man I you know, there’s all kinds of stories you can say there and it’s you’re just talking about life basically. But you’re giving that reference, not just going, I’m here to sell you blah blah blah whatever. So,

And sometimes I don’t think that at least in my mind. client base, not everybody is going to want to continue these stories on with you. Right? But you put them in a, in a bubble, a personality bubble that you can communicate with. So it’s a tool to get somebody there. No, most of my clients aren’t going to want to talk about my day and my feelings and how, what I do when I go home, I’m just not in that business. Right. And, you know, maybe in healthcare with you guys, you’re a little more people based, you know, because you’re in healthcare, you obviously care about some people and, you know, maybe, maybe that’s a big difference. But the point to what I’m saying is, you know, you as somebody, or you just say, a man, I hate wearing this mask, you’re gonna get a whole bunch of different, next, there’s the cat again.

Identify that that’s a very valid point right there. You’re also going to identify by bringing up something as simplistic as the mask for instance, while we’re on that, and you’re also going to identify if they want to proceed. Further and that kind of sits in a conversation and if not, then you go Okay, well, clearly they just what what’s what do you need? You know, and then

I sort of disagree because I think you can break from a story and apologize for wasting their time with something that may you know, take the story away from Hey, sorry, I’m tying up your day with a bunch of nonsense and see what that gets you right if it gets no reaction Yeah, you are tying up their day? Or they’ll be, and saying, no, no, no, absolutely. Yeah, that was funny, you know, so you can ask permission for further engagement. You use the story, go ahead.

I’m gonna have to disagree with you but I know you love to disagree but you did.

Not like, not like Clint does, Clint loves disagreements so much than I do.

You did not say something different than what Clint and I’ve just stated, you were just went further into actual action. So that’s all that was. You didn’t disagree with us. You You said, we said you get to identify by bringing up something. And you, you’re saying that no, you just you get to move on now, to move on. You get to say, everyone. Is that another cat? No.

You get to move on Ben Ben, get to stepping.

Yeah. I just want to point out that I don’t argue, I just tell everybody how I’m right. If you’d guys just listen, it wouldn’t be an argument.

I love it. Well, buddy, somebody texted me the other day, and they actually texted me at the end of it. That’s my D statement for the day. And I looked at it and I shook my head and I was like, not even close. Not even close, you’re so far off the mark. It’s so funny. So it’s funny that people are starting to text me with like, oh, here’s my here’s my I story, or here’s my D statement and stuff like that. So it’s pretty funny. But so, when I’m, I think that The even when you’re framing, right or set or setting expectations for like, what’s going to happen, you know, setting the agenda. I mean, in that kind of also telling a story from the point of like, okay, here’s what customarily happens in these conversations. So would it make sense to do it this way? You know?

Yep, that’s a way to do it for sure. And I think that depending on who you’re talking to who your audience is, and and by aging that and the bonding rapport side of, of the initial setup, right is how you approach your your next steps in your sales cycle, whatever they may be, right? And if you can use stories because he’s an I and he loves to talk about the same fish that he caught 70 times and it keeps getting bigger, than frame your next conversation around it. Right. But you know, there there is a there’s a point where there are some people out there and probably in the Ds and Cs, especially that I don’t have time for the storytelling shit, let’s get get on with this thing. I appreciate. You know, I appreciate I appreciate that you know You told me this cool story. But that’s, you know, so I’ll give you this nugget from from at least what I’ve learned about telling stories is you have got to listen and watch tonality or watch body language and listen to tonality because the first minute, first second that those people check out of your conversation, you are done telling stories, you got to know that. And if you don’t know that you’re in the wrong business.

Okay. And then there’s where I was going with my analogy that the minute you perceive that this story has run its course. Yeah, move, take that opportunity to move, move the conversation forward in a business agenda or whatever tempo the story could be business related. Right? In then I can stop boring, Clint and go Clint, we could be here all day talking about this stuff. What about this project? Did you know that actually brought us here to you know, to, you know, make something happen on your side and my side, right.

I’ve stopped in the middle of my own stories. said, you know, it literally lost them. They look around the room, right? They looked out the window they, they have they’re on to something else in their own brain and stop my stories midstream and just and just moved on just up anyway. And it’s like, oh, no, go ahead. It’s like, No, no, it’s good. Let’s just let’s just move on. And you gotta know when to do that.

Agree. Absolutely.

If you’re paying attention, you’ll feel it. It’s pretty obvious.

Yeah, well, and you know, I’m thinking back today. I mean, I probably told 10 stories today, along the way. And one of them was about being in Vegas, and it was with the vendor group that came into the clinic today. So I had a business and it’s a pharmacy that’s going to work with our clinics, and then it’s going to give us an opportunity to connect in a business way and maybe get some business out of it. So it meant something to both sides. And at the end of this whole thing, we agreed to do business. figured out what our next step was. And as they’re walking out the door, the guy turns and says, Hey, and we got to go to Vegas together someday,right? Yeah. Bingo, boom. When he comes back to me about my story, that’s a win in my book right now then we exchanged some emails after the fact about how we get some standing orders in their system from our Doc’s and stuff like that. But the the nugget was, the story was good enough for his comment at the end. Just saying,

Yeah, and you know, I that’s really legit Doc, because I use that all the time to where somebody will say like, oh, man, I love to go. I love to go hunting out west in Montana. You know, I love to do that stuff. And and I use that story to say, Hey, man, how do we how do me work together so that we get so filthy stinking rich, that we can go on these hunts five times a year and I’ll pay for everything. How do we do that? You know, and you know, you just You got to, as much as you need to tell some stories and interact, you’ve got to use their own. That’s the whole point of listening and the bonding rapport is to listen to what they’re saying to you hear their stories, because people, especially especially the Is, and Melissa’s hating me because I keep saying, especially but you’re welcome, Melissa, I caught it. But yeah, you know, that, I think…

For those who don’t know, Melissa is our back, back, she’s stage production in the back so we get a critique from her. The words we shouldn’t shouldn’t use, right.

She’s our podcast. fluffer Wow, wow. Whoa

Wow, whoa. Shots fired.

He did not mean that.

Yeah. Clint’s gonna be barely a guest appearance on the next handful of episodes, just edited out completely.

Well, this show,

There’ll just be a dark square there.

Remind me later to tell you the most tasteless joke from that jumping point I could think of, I’m not even gonna say it live.

There goes half your audience, yeah, and the, the other half watch because they hate me.

Okay either way as long as there’s an audience, right. Oh man.

What what an I statement, “I don’t care why you’re here as long as you’re here.”

Oh yeah, my my only fans page’s link is at the bottom, go ahead and sign up.

Oh lord. Alright, Nan, are the animals okay?

Nan’s got a farm over there.

I’m waiting for the alpaca to like spit at her. Oh Alright, so back to back to stories and selling, right. I think that because I learned of this as a technique first, I tried to, like Hold it, hold it sacred as a technique. And I and I only use it as a sales technique right but i do it. I use it, you know and analogies and metaphors and stories and everything else like this in every other aspect of my life and those are genuine and it’s hard for me to use them in my sales conversations like authentically sometimes Why? I’m because it because I have an agenda behind it. Right? I’m trying to and this is what I’m like prompting for, you know, well, John, I don’t know the answer for that. Well, sometimes when when I hear that it means A, B, or C you know, so when I’m because like to me like that’s a that’s a little mini story that I’m using right? You know, like let’s him talking about budget, you know, like okay, like how much should this be costing you? To fix it and never have to worry about it ever again. Well, I don’t know. Okay, fair. What what? What should it cost? In your opinion? Like, well, John, what do you think it costs? Well, I’m not I don’t know. Yeah. Right. And I kind of go through that process. But all of that is, you know, when you’re bracketing, you know, doing all of that stuff. You’re, you’re essentially telling a little mini stories there. So, when in my sales conversations that always feels like there’s an agenda and so I’m trying to checkbox that that agenda, check that box. So

So, you know, maybe a nugget, maybe not, but if I were you, I would, I would definitely say, Hey, I’m trying to get to x goal, right? And I’m gonna tell you the story of why I think this will help you make your decision. And that’ll be your agenda, stated upfront. Why can’t you say that?

Because I think it takes, uh, I could, but that’s gonna make me come off even more robotic than I do when I’m… really that’s crazy See

Really? That’s crazy. See, see I tell you what I picture every single person that I talk because I’m because I’m just a good old boy right and and and I really don’t give a shit but but the point of it is is that I just treat everybody like a good old boy. I don’t care who you are, where you’re from, I just treat you like you were you know a guy at the coffee shop back home grown up and it’s just Hey man I’m trying to get I’m trying to help you out you need some help you know what can we do to make this done and if we can’t Let’s end it. And my sales conversations nine times out of 10 are that are just that simple. And yeah I get noes really fast and and yes, I I could probably burn away some business that I could otherwise salvage. But to me it’s like, I want to do good. That business with those people like me right as much as possible because it’s easy, and it works. So try to knock all those You know, I try to run out of options first of doing doing business with like minded people before I have to go to salvage relationships and be robotic and and I think I might be in an industry that I’m allowed to do that a little more than than some but you know, I think the yes sir and but if you treat people like you would talk to your best friend or your dad or your grandpa or whatever little brother, you answer the phone Hey, what’s going on? What are you calling me for? What can I do for you? If you treat people that way you get honest answers because you’re just being honest right? If you answer and you say Hello, this is Clint Bigelow from low block I mean, you’ve already put yourself down a path that you can’t it’s hard to get out of that tonality that says conversations it’s hard to get out of. So I don’t know that and that’s that’s how I that’s how I use stories is to get myself stay away from that one trick sales tonality and, and you fall down that rut that you can’t get out of treat them like you want to be treated. And Nan was saying that earlier. Right.

So So, John, back to your, what you alluded to was that, you know, you get into the mechanics of your project. Or if I heard you correctly, you’re thinking about two steps ahead of where your story is, is that is that what kind of gets in the way or go back to where you’re having problems on on the story issue?

You know, the, uh, how do I say that? I have an agenda, like always, right, like when I’m, you know, if I’m chatting with someone in DMs to like, try to get into a phone call, and I’m only having this chat, because I want to see if there’s a reason for us to work together. Right. And I would love I would absolutely love it if the world was just that simple. And I could be like, hey, look, I’d love to talk to you for 15 minutes. See if there’s anything that I can help you with. This is what people talk to me about. Would that be okay? But What I’m finding is like that’s a struggle, right? Because of how struggle for you or for them to connect when you say it that way.

Does it matter?

That’s a fair question.

I think it does. Because if you’re in your own way versus them, I mean, maybe you I mean, is it that you have a preconceived notion that they’re going to get bored with what you’re saying, if you don’t get to the, to the meat and potatoes sooner or

No, because what happens with you know, like the social selling in the DM selling, you know, that I’m trying to do is that there’s, there’s like this like, tight rope, right? Because if I just bomb somebody with like, Oh, hey, like, super happy to be connected. Would love to take 15 minutes of your time and see, see if I can help you out. Everybody hates that, right? Because it’s like, well, you couldn’t even like try to have a conversation with me first. Right? And so then on the other side of it is like, okay, like, let’s Converse long enough so that way I feel like we can we can do these things because like I can, I can figure out really quickly even via like, like text now, are they a D, I, S, and C, right? And so then my agenda is done. So then I’m just kind of like hanging out in limbo until we can actually move on to like a call. Does that make sense?

I know this guy that is very kind. He loves his daughter and I’ve spent quite a bit of time with this gentleman, and I’ve seen him get his daughter to do all kinds of great things, be it very being quiet in a room full of people and addressing what she should be doing what she shouldn’t be doing. In five minutes. I see him and he does it with complete confidence because he knows very clearly what he wants and what his agenda is. He knows his agenda, what what it what he wants it to start with and what he wants in the middle and he wants what he wants it to be at the end. So what I can’t, this gentleman that I’m speaking to right now, not thinking he’s talking to the customer, I say the same thing. I’ve been told a little bit of a story, stating what you do all the time with your child, and I bet you do. I’m not around you and your wife. But I bet you do the same thing with her. That you, you, you’re not manipulating. You’re just saying this is what’s going on. How would this affect you? If you know what however you do it, think how you do. And you do it with sincerity and you care and it shouldn’t be any different. But for some reason your brain has I from what it sounds like to me, just in this conversation that your brain has shifted to a little bit of insecurity to be absolutely honest, you know, what I’m seeing, talking to a client when it’s probably so not true. I mean, it’s just And if it is, who cares because your end result is the same you you would like to accomplish something right. So why not approach it the same way is it just really hard to get out of your own way to do that?

That’s a good question. And this might be just pure head trash, right? like like like this might be a blind spot that I have not ever seen before until just right now, but you know the How do I say that, the relationship with the people who know me really well actually, that might be head trash as well because like I was about to say that you know, you guys know me really well so I can just be really direct with you and it’s not that big of a deal. But I’m thinking that people who don’t know me as well when I try to be as direct with him as like I am with you guys or my family and stuff like this, it comes off badly.

Yeah, why? why did why does it come off badly then?

Um, because

They don’t know you yet. Period. Okay, but that’s everybody But that’s everybody. John, that’s everybody on the entire planet, man, you, you until you’ve discovered each other things are gonna get taken out of context and out of ways. That’s why you, that’s why you got to discover.

I have question for everybody, right? How likable do you think you are? On a broad spectrum?

Oh, on a scale of zero to a hundred, I’m a seven.

No, on a broad. You know, how likable are you to the Ss, to the Ds, to the Cs? Oh, are you a well liked guy all the way around that pattern?

I don’t know.

Because it means I think well, of course. I mean, all of us. Well, but no, no. Because I have deep seated friendships in all those arenas. Okay. Right.

And you should.

And I actually think that I like people who aren’t I’s more than I liked anybody else.

Right Of course. Right. And

These animals, Nan, Jesus.

It’s a petting zoo, what are you gonna do with the petting zoo? Right?

She doesn’t even push the dog down, like, the dog is so spoiled. He just has no idea.

So, so when you because when I see somebody who’s a D, right, which clearly maybe I can slide that way a little more than I can do even the other two. You know, I’m like, I want to feel his D-ness. Right. I mean, I want to absorb some of that and take some of the passion they have for who they are. And, and wrap that into that conversation of like, who’d you kill Clint today? Right. You know, I mean, let’s egg this on, on behalf of the conversation.

Well, okay, so, here’s the deal.

I really want to say something. Okay, so something that you told a story about how you felt about the whole COVID thing. I don’t know if it was when we were recording not recording, but just kind of enriching your life with your family, you’re increasing your studies, you know, you told that story. That is a fantastic story to tell people because then they will see great side of you that made me go, Oh, you know, this guy has a really golden heart. Like, that’s so cool. I loved that story that everyone would probably except for Clint maybe.

Thank you.

No, Clint liked the story. I mean, he because it highlighted the opposites between Clint and John. Right. And there’s nothing wrong with that. If you say, wow, I could never be you, then that usually means they’ll never be me.

Right. So hold on, right, the because this is where this is how deep the wiring goes, right? I can’t view a sales conversation as anything like other than a task. So it gets really hard for me to just like drop into there and not be thinking about. Okay, like what? Okay, what’s next? Okay, like, Okay, cool. They said this, I need to do this. You know, it’s it is so

Why, I don’t? Why?

It’s just how I think about it. It’s just how I do…

Okay, and that’s good. I’m not calling it wrong. I’m just asking the why. Why is how cuz I mean, you’re defining it. So it’s got to have some value on your side. But if you see value, but you still have struggle related to some value component, isn’t that a conflict? Here’s all my value, but it conflicts me because I think it holds me back right?

This story about this guy that lost just lost his job. He was an executive. He was doing fantastic. He lost his job. He went out up y’all maybe read the same story he went out and he just started mowing grass, painting houses, just doing those kind of he’s making more money now less time in his life, less tons less stress, just doing that. And and he touted all of that he went you know what I I’ve shifted I went from doing something that was just like oh like stressful in in it to something I was it was attitude attitude is everything we’ve said it a million times on this on this podcast. And so I think for John someone that is like thinking like john, you just need to shift your your and that’s so easy to just say of course but what you’re doing, you’re not so I feel like you’re just you put so much pressure on yourself probably. And it makes it more you’ve said robotic, it makes it more instead of just going out there trying to Just make some money for the fam man. Oh, well, I mean,

That’s such like I, so I like control, right and so when I when I can hold these things in my head is steps that I need to go and do and check off or whatever it gives me more control. So then mentally I’m in control of of this nebulous thing, which is a sales conversation and trying to navigate through it. So, yeah, like literally that’s how I like how I’m doing it in my head. I’m like, I’m like cool, like, okay, I feel like I’ve got enough pain so now let’s try to transition out of the second talk into budget. I mean, it is it is incredibly for formulaic in my head and I think there’s pluses and minuses to it right? Because you know, I found a way that works for me. I mean, I can tell by the look on the three of your faces that like this is like Oh crap, like John’s a complete robot, but it’s a it’s just like a like a thing I do so, but I’m so bought into the control, right because the control leads to me not being not being wrong. Very often. So that’s how it ties back to that thing.

We’ll get Okay, so can you can you put that into a story for people so they better understand where you’re coming from? And why maybe you do the things that you do?

Um, you know, so for a long time when I was in sales, it was I was just kind of good by like proximity, right? It’s kind of like, I didn’t really have any skills, you know, compared to the level training that I’ve done. We’ve all gone through at this point. It was it was a drop in the bucket. And so I had a lot of ego, right. And then whenever I went to work for you, was the first time I struggled. And so then it was just like, oh, man, now I’m not enough to do this job well, right. And so then I find, you know, coaching and training and in these methods that are going to make me better at this thing, right? And so then it becomes a thing a little bit like Kung Fu this, this thing that I can do to help myself in a situation that is going to be uncomfortable and somewhat uncontrolled. So I view You know, the sales training that I’ve done it, you know, up until fairly recently, as like, kind of like Kung Fu, right? You know, this like series of things and techniques that I can use. But then I catch myself recently, being way too cognizant of like, okay, cool, like they did this. So let’s use this technique. And I don’t do that when I’m doing Kung Fu. So when I do Kung Fu, it just happens. Right? So. And I and I rail against that, because it bothers me that like, I’m trying to build back to a place to where I can tell everyone will, it’s just something I do because that that bothers me at a very deep level, because I like to be taught things and I like to teach other people things.

So I want to interject here because I find this a lot in in a lot of different aspects in life. You can train too many different ways too much to do one damn thing. The goal here is to sell something, right? And if you were successful at it before, it’s probably because it was very simple, right? You had a product, somebody needed the product and you convinced them that yours was better than the other one they were using or or you built a relationship so they bought from you versus the other guy. Period, right? I went through this struggle with a golf. And I know a lot of people don’t like talking about golf. But I really when I first played, I knew nothing about the game. I just knew I had to hit the white ball down the fairway and onto the green and put it in the hole. And it was super simple. And I shot really well, I was at 80s, always an ace, eight handicap. And I spent the next 15 years learning everything there was to know about the game and my game became trash. I shot in the hundreds all the time. And it was so frustrating to me because all I knew I knew I could shoot better scores than that. But every week I would go play and I just kept getting worse and worse. So I’d watch another video and I’d watch another seminar on how to how to fix my slice and how to fix my grip. And it got to be so much bullshit in my head that I couldn’t do the one thing that I was supposed to do which was hit the freakin ball straight. Right and now I’ve cleared my head gone gone back to just do what works, right. I know I need to get my clubface square and hit the golf ball. And if I do that the ball will go where I’m pointing. And, and that’s what I think a lot of people suffer within sales, right, as we just talked about. We have too many ideas, we have too many directions and too many, you know, we build all this stuff up and if you don’t perform it perfectly you fail. And, and that’s horseshit. Right? Because it’s, it’s really just about getting the message that you want to the customer as best as possible and you’re gonna fail and who gives a shit? Right and do it again, and do it again until it feels good and find that right customer. So I think that’s a little bit of your problem, john, I think that’s a little bit of everybody’s problem. That’s trying to be out there selling right?

Well, uh, you know, you you, you nailed it, I was gonna use the same analogy. It’s like firing a gun, right, some of these guys and they’re just lining it up and they’re trying to get it in the bullseye. Man, I’m safety up, safety down, okay, that’s the way that works. Here’s the trigger, the bullet comes out that end, let’s go, right? You can spend all day trying to hit the bullseye. I’m going to shoot in that direction. And I’m going to try to stay out of the way the bullets come in this direction. Right. And at a certain point beyond that, I mean, you know, let’s get the show on man. Exactly. We’re there.

And I think I think that’s a that’s that’s what you’re going through John, is I think, is probably the hardest challenge for Cs to be in sales, right? It is a difficult personality to be in a sales role, except for during COVID-19 where the the introverts disease and you get to be locked up behind. You don’t have to do any social interaction. I’m joking a little bit there. But you know, I think that C’s run into this a lot where it’s Gotta have a process for everything. And that’s why all these, you know, frankly, I think I can hear it. I get a cold call from a call center. And somebody wants to sell me the next best widget or, you know, timeshare in Florida, and they have a script. And you can tell when I when I screw the script up, you can hear him fumble for a second to find the next thing. And eventually, it just is so unnatural that I don’t even want to be on the phone anymore. And maybe I wanted the timeshare in Florida. Who knows. But you’ve made this so awkward by trying to follow this process versus just saying, hey, I’ve got timeshares in Florida. Would you like one? Hell yeah, I want one sign me up. It can be that simple.

Yeah, well, go ahead, Nan.

I think it is very much not being a robot don’t go in there like a robot. I love that Clint said that about, you know, just following too many processes. Really. You know, we say it all the time, it’s probably obnoxious, but it is truly relationship, know your stuff, know what you’re repping, selling, and know how to engage with people. It’s really just that simple.

You know? And so the, this is not to say that I’m not successful, right, like, I mean, I sell them and have deals and you know, contrary to what what the hair might indicate, like, like things are not like, bad right at all like, like things are fine. But in my studies, I’m starting to see that there’s another level of this that maybe I was not seeing clearly, right, because you know, you put in the work, you see some success, and then you’re like, cool, I got it, and then like you turn around, right, and then it’s like, oh, there’s more. And let’s go find that more. And I think I’m starting to find some of that for myself, which is about knowing the stuff so well, the mechanical side of it that I can let it go and and function Without being like hands on so much.

Yeah, and, you know, the one thing that you do very well as create matrix for yourself and stops and starts and I don’t do this unless there’s a reward, you know, or a reason why. And, you know, if, if you being robotic, throws your numbers in the wrong direction, then make it a put that in your matrix, you know, oh, yeah, okay, I got it. And I know you do that, but C, C’s out there listening. Like if you’re failing, and it’s skewing your numbers the wrong way, then you need to put that failure in your numbers so that you can fix that shit. So that the numbers down the road work out and do whatever it takes whatever you can do, physically, mentally do possible to fix that freakin failure, man.

Yeah. And then the other side of that is I’m also aware that I might be completely overthinking all of this because I live too much in my head anyway. So so this might seem seemed like a big deal to me at times. But it’s not actually a big deal in any of the conversations I’m having. And I’m just projecting it because I’m thinking about it.

Yeah, I mean, I prepare for meetings and phone calls for one reason only. It has nothing to do with matrix or winning the sale or losing the sale. It has to do with my one fear. And that’s embarrassing. I don’t want to be the stupid guy in the room. So therefore, I prep. But if I wasn’t fearful of that, I wouldn’t do it. Right. Yeah. And everybody has different motivators here. Everybody has a different reason why they’re going to prep and do different things. But man, you gotta you got to overcome that fear at some point. Otherwise, you’re just gonna get bogged down and stuck and you might as well quit, because it’s not gonna get any better.

But why is it so wrong to say to somebody, hey, you kind of lost me here. Can we back up a second and genuinely slow the conversation down? Give yourself a minute to think about. I mean, there are natural ways to, you know, prevent yourself from rushing into too much on the analytics or letting go.

Yeah. So sorry, I didn’t mean to go, Well, we don’t want to hear. There’s this thing in in Kung Fu, you know, that we talked about and how you know, this is like, you know, even if you engage badly, just the fact that you’re engaging is gonna put you ahead of the curve right and so the way that I’ve been thinking about about a lot of this stuff, you know, for the past week or so is that is it just engage in some way but but don’t have that moment of that pause? Like deer deer in the headlights thing, you know, that happens when you get caught in a moment where you’re not prepared?

Well, but if you’re not prepared, why not own that? Go, interesting. I wasn’t prepared for that. Let’s talk Can we talk some more about that man, get them because we’re all smart enough to follow somebody lead. Let them start leading You at that point, knowing that you really sit with a lot of expertise in your arena. But, you know, we got to kind of get through this wherever we’re at to get them to the next step. Does that make sense?

It does. But on a certain level, I don’t want to give up the control of the conversation, right?

Why do you Why do you have to control the conversation?

Because I’m the guy who’s done it before.

Done what before?

Had these kinds of conversations, right? So when I, how, no, but hold on.

What kind of conversation? Right, what conversation?

The way that I think about all this is like, okay, there’s the salesperson, right? And then there’s the buyer, right? Who has had more reps of having these conversations out of those two situations. Usually it’s the salesperson, not the buyer, right? So the salesperson should take the lead and lead the way through the conversation. Right, and let’s talk about what what normally happens at the end of the conversations and what happens next. And


I’m so far the opposite that, yeah, really, I’m here. I’m here for you. What do you want? We, we want to talk about? Like, seriously.

Because how then if you’re taking control, do you not really found true problem that this guy needs or gal needs to solve? I mean, I get the formality of, Hey, you know, trying to talk about, you know, but I mean, talk about your agenda or the sales process from your side, like, Hey, here’s what to expect whenever I sit in front of you. But after that, I need to start discovering from you, John. You know, what, you know, I kind of feel some pain here or I know there’s a conversation that’s centered around solving something either in a better way than what’s currently what you’re currently doing, or in a new innovative way. Whatever that twist may be. So tell I then I got to start getting some information from you, you got to start telling me your story so that then I can get down the road with Aha, here’s a light bulb moment I’m looking at light bulb moments that that put me in the spectrum of being able to solve something for you or engaging business people that puts money on the table for you and money on the table for me,

I’m with you a little bit there and to be honest with you this very topic and a lot of the reasons that I lost faith in some of the systems that we were learning all of us and some of the of the selling training tools out there is because the fact that I have to set this agenda and and I know that I’m speaking to the book, right, I’m speaking line items, books stuff here, but that I have to set this agenda and I must set the time and the place and do you have 30 minutes and is it okay if I run five Back, you’ve already lost a guy like me so many times over that I had to adjust from that, that script. And I will tell you this that just the other day, I went with that script, because it was a very important phone call of a customer that was not willing to return to do business with us ever again because of something that happened, and I wanted to get to the root of that problem. So it because of the embarrassment and the failure.

Yeah, we should pause and go into part two, because we’re we’re at 50 minutes now. So let’s pause real quick. Pick this up in like another episode, and what is the end of the story. Does that sound okay, yeah.

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