Episode 63: How to Improve Both Likability and Selling Success

Episode 63


Let’s get ready to Throwdown!

Welcome to the show everybody, Sales Throwdown we are back. Clint is reading a bunch of books in preparation for this episode. What are you reading there, Clint?

Everything, man everything to do selling.

We are talking today about where we are most effective and least effective in our sales processes. We’ve talked a lot about the fact that we all bring our own junk to the table. Some of us are not great at data. Some of us are not great at paperwork. Some of us are not great at prospecting. So we’re gonna talk about where you’re really efficient and where you’re not. And how do you troubleshoot and maximize the areas where you’re not efficient. So this was Al’s topic choice because he was reading a Inc magazine article that we’re kind of repurposing for our purposes. So al, like as a salesperson and as an AI and what you do? Where is your struggle? Hey, hold on.

Yeah, this was this was out of a different magazine that he always read, Seventeen, I think it’s called.

Tiger Beat, Tiger Beat.

Tiger, yeah Tiger Beat. No, no, this, you know, I guess when you say where am I least effective? I’d like to start with the recent…

Of course you want to start with the good stuff. All right, let’s go.

Well, no, the article was more about, you know, answer to these two questions to determine how likable you are. Right? And so the likability factor, which I think we all have, to one degree or another. I just think in the I category, we strive for that likability. Right, and I think it, it’s my calling card. But one of the things that this article really talked about to dive in is, it was about being present, right? And that they did some studies, and these were university studies where they sent like four women to various classes. And the women, the ladies, they just picked women, for some reason, it didn’t really explain that because they were making a short version of this, this whole research study. And then they went for a semester in these classes. Some of them showed up a little, some of them showed up a lot. And they didn’t say anything to anybody in the class. And then they went back to the class and said, Hey, they rated their likeability. And it was literally just the people who showed up. They didn’t say anything, but it was the familiarity of seeing the person and not what they did, why you saw them that made you feel more inclined towards them. And they went on to talk about how if you have a sales protocol of just being present and around your clients, however that happens, is a plus. It’s very seldom a detractor to the process.

Yeah. And so. So I found the real actual article real quick. And those are the two questions Do I show up? And can people count on me to show up? So yeah, those are two questions and I think, I think they’re good. Sorry, sorry, to cut you off, Nannette. What were saying?

No, I, I was just thinking, that reminds me of music. When you hear a song that you’re very familiar with, and you love you love listening to it. When you’re listening to a new song. It might be a great song, but until you get familiar with it, you don’t usually love it, you know, and, and I whenever Al was stating what the article was indicating that just that whole analogy came to mind that that is it familiarity is super important. I mean, even if it’s just recognition of a face like he stated.

And, and to that point, which was a great analogy, to that point is you hear a song and you get familiar with it anything. This I’m gonna listen to the song every day for the rest of my life. And after two months, you say, God, I can’t I can’t stand. Yeah. So you got to be careful because you don’t want to be that, you know that one month popular song that goes away either.

Right? Well, the in the article also talked about, I guess they were part of this article talked about this warehouse or industrial kind of setting that these guys worked in. And they had a bunch of upper management kind of the thing never saw, they just came in worked, you know, they’re hard working guys. But there was one manager that would come down and he wouldn’t he didn’t really occupy a bunch of your time, but he would just walk through check on equipment. He said, sometimes you just give you a nod or say, Hey, how are you doing? Just walk through and laugh. And it talked about how popular he was. He didn’t do anything extraordinary. Except he showed up and it wasn’t like an appointment where he had to be there like, got to go check on the crew, he would just make a habit of walking through the plant. And I’m sure Clint, you can speak to that about you know, these these guys that show up just to kind of do a walkthrough and, and not to criticize anything not to even tell you how good you’re doing. Just to see you You see their face and boom, out the door. You go says good little article.

Yeah, it’s super easy to challenge the guy that you know everything about right, the guy that comes in and tells you all his goods as bad as ups as downs. It’s really hard to eventually in a month’s time you start to assemble, how do I beat this guy, even though it’s not a competition, or he didn’t mean it to me, he’s just trying to be friendly, right? But the guy that silent shows up on time walks by you, how’s it going? and keeps to himself? That guy’s a mystery, right? Which makes him likable, for whatever reason to humanity, we like a mystery, we like people that we just don’t know everything about. And the moment that’s kind of like that, you know, that popular song after a while when you know, everything about it, you know, every beat every word, it gets old, and you’re just ready to move on to a new mystery. So, you know, silence is golden. I mean, in sales and personality, because it’s so hard for most of us to stay silent, right? We want to feel the hair. And in sales, it’s us and making new friends. It’s big, right? Just be interested in what is going on and not be the center of attention all the time. But there’s a lot of good talking points out of that.

Oh, absolutely. Well, so like in my world where where I see this the most is in networking, right? You have someone who joins the group, and they’re supposed to be there weekly, right? Very, very recurring. It’s a it’s a, there’s supposed to be close knit groups. And they and they don’t show up with like any kind of regularity. But you notice that these people show up whenever they have something to promote or a big ask or, you know, business is low. So now they’re, they’re back on the grind and prospecting and stuff like this. And when you when you build that persona, right, in these groups, everybody knows that, right? Because like everyone has been burned by the networking connection that doesn’t actually show up well, you know, whenever they need them to. So you know, do people count on you to show up? Right? It? I mean, if you’re networking? Yeah, especially if it’s like a group and you know, you’re trying to grow the group and things like that.

Yeah, but I think it is even easier than that, john, if you’re always around, right, in a quiet way, like Clint said. So you’ve got the familiarity of I know that guy, I don’t know him, but I know he’s always here, right? In I’m always here. So now you’ve got this commonality just by being in the same room for the same event. And then it just now becomes, don’t blow that. Okay, guys, listen to this. There’s the starting point. Don’t blow that by being the guy that john just spoke about, or being offensive or trying to occupy other people’s time. It’s it’s about finding those right little avenues where either it’s, uh, you know, you’re at the bar or whatever, or it’s a, like a networking. Hey, what do you do open with a question, not a, hey, I’m, here’s what I do.

Yeah. So it’s funny because as a as like a very dominant on the DISC spectrum personality, the first thing that you want to do as a leader or a salesperson, is you want to come in and dominate every conversation that there is, and you want to show everybody that you’re the best and I’m the greatest. But the problem is, is you just made enemies. And you didn’t even need to do it. Right. So you come in and you say, I’m the best there is, well, now some because you said that statement, just that now somebody has to prove that you’re not right. If you’d have never said the statement, you could have just got along and you could have made you know made friends make you know made a professional contacts. But as soon as you challenge people, and this is speaking to the D’s out there, right? As soon as you challenge people peep somebody in the crowd is going to accept you know, accept the challenge. And there and if you look at the if you look at it backwards, there’s not always a reason to challenge anybody. Let’s just get the work done, right. You need me I need you. Let’s get this done. doesn’t need to be a foot race. All the time.

You know, there’s there’s a guy who I’m doing a project with and he’s, he’s a, he’s from New Jersey. He lives in New Jersey. He’s got that accent. He’s got all the stereotypes that goes along with it. And he’s also a D, right. So he messaged me and he’s like, man, I don’t Can I can I play you this call? And I was like, yeah, sure, no, absolutely. And he ran into another D. Right? Who was also from New Jersey, and everything is like this. And from the start of the call it the, the, the the accents, and the attitude ramped up so fast. It was so crazy. And he’s like, man, like, I have never been so uncomfortable on a call. And I said, What did you end up doing is like, I hung up on him. And then he said, Call me back, was like, you call him back? And he was like, Hell no, I’m not calling that dude back. It’s so so we’re listening to this thing. And this guy is all over the place. He’s talking about how I’m trying to be delicate. So you know, but he’s talking about the fact that like, he’s got a million dollars in overhead each year. And like, it’s the jungle out here. And you can’t just do karate, like like, you’ve got to practice MMA if you’re going to be out in the jungle. It is the it is the weirdest conversation I think I’ve ever listened to. Right. And then three quarters away through the guy was like, Man, you don’t know my business and this isn’t a dick measuring contest, however, you know, and it’s just like, Yeah, he was like, what do you do there? And I was like, you just have to prove that you’re not that you’re not a doormat by saying, cool. I’m not gonna be the right one to help you.

Yeah. And yeah, I get asked this question more than anything, especially from this podcast, but also coworkers like, Hey, man, you’re that type of personality? I’m dealing with this guy. How do I, how do I deal with you? And it’s like, dude, you got to give him a win. Right? you’re arguing with the guy even though he’s freaking wrong, right? You know, he’s wrong. You got all the data and facts to back it up. But one of the things you can’t do is go, you’re wrong. I’m right, because that guy thrives on, on on exactly what you just did on the situation to try to prove me wrong, what you do, you know, which can do is, Hey, man, I understand your point of view, I can see how that makes sense to you, you know, good job of doing all the work that you did. But you know, truly, here’s the facts of what I’ve done. And you’re kind of equal the scales of, you know,

ask, ask, ask a question a lot of times, right, don’t make a statement around these guys. Well, what happens when Yeah, exactly. And and where did you get your facts from? What do you do when this happens? When you know, it’s, you know, when when the, you know, when the fire starts, right, and you burn the building down, and if the guy goes, I just tell them to fuck off and call their insurance company, you’re like, Wow, great, you know, expose the cracks, or let them you know, try to overcome what you know, those deficiencies are because I mean, you got to have that conversation if you’re trying to get anywhere with them. So don’t, don’t don’t, you know, don’t cower down. But you don’t have to challenge you don’t have to run head on into a semi truck to prove that your vehicle can beat a semi truck, because it probably can’t,

you know, let it run as true, right? Because that works against all personnel. It’s not just a D or a dominant personality. That works against a lot like if a guy’s a storyteller, right? And you’re not, you’re the opposite person. I don’t want to hear this shit, right? Like, I got stuff to do. I don’t want to hear this. You can’t shut the guy down. That That guy’s a storyteller, right? Slow down, take a minute out of your day, listen to the stories. And you can be blunt, right? There’s nothing wrong with being blunt. Hey, man, I got to get through this, like, hey, let’s focus on the task. But you’ve listened to a story that’s given him a win, right? If a Nannette, if you’re if you’re faced with a Nannette, who’s an S, and she’s talking about compassion, and you know, love and all this stuff. And you don’t believe in any of that stuff. You say, hey, Okay, I see where you’re coming from. That’s great. You know that, that probably feels good. Let’s move on about our business. That’s giving people wins, right? And you don’t have to do it. It just smooths it out a little bit better for you.

Yeah, like today, I was I’m sending an email to something that task, my one, a new task I have is calling on lawyers. And so you go into the office, and you can’t talk to the PR, I can’t talk to the person I need to talk to. So they said but email him and I’m like, cool. So I send out an email. And I’m thinking, let’s make this really short, you know, really concise, and, end it with they have, you know, they don’t have to but you want a response from them. You’re not just sending out information. And I was thinking, even after I type it, I go Okay, now go back, read it. You know, just the fewer words you use. I say it all the time and you said it earlier. I think the fewer words you use less pomp and circumstance. I just think you’re going to be it’s more effective. You know, I think that goes along with everything you’ve been talking about. And so I think it’s important when you’re in front of someone, I think I think it’s important when you’re sending out emails or any kind of verbal, it needs to be really concise. And not just, you know, just throwing up on people, they people don’t like that. I don’t care what, if you’re a D, I, S, or C, people don’t want a ton of information thrown at them, you know,

I want all the information, right? I mean, but it’s funny because I will write these emails and then I’m like, Okay, cool. I need a break from this. And then I’ll look back and I’m like, okay, who am I writing this to? And we’ve talked about this, I kind of think about you guys. Right? Okay, cool. I think this person’s a D. If I sent this to Clint, is he gonna read it? Nope. How do I make Clint read this thing? You know? And, and it’s funny, because I will write what I think is a very short, succinct email, and then I look at it, I’m like, no one else other than me is going to read this whole thing top to bottom. So let’s like like, email is not the place to do much other than like, trying to move something forward. Right. But there’s so many people who want to just like thrive in that email, right? Oh, well follow up via email. No, you’re not? Because I mean, I get I mean, everybody gets so much email, right. Like, I mean, it’s it’s mountains of it. So like, if you’re willingly putting yourself back into that, that fight. You’re you’re creating a gap for no really great reason.

Yeah. And it’s kind of funny you say that, because I noticed a lot. One of the things that that I I’ve been doing recently, and it’s worked really well for me is, you know, I think some, Al might have mentioned earlier as ask questions, right? I now has more questions about what do you want to see from me? Going for? Right? And that’s not a natural question for me. I’m never asked that. Right. I assume right? As you I know what you’re talking about? Because I am me. And you, are you and you’re down here and I’m up here. So I assume I know everything right? That’s a pretty D thought process. So now that I’ve asked like, Hey, what do you what do you truly expect to get out of what you’ve asked me to do? When do you need it? What do you want to see? That makes the email chain going back after that so easy. You’ve told me everything you want to see? Right? So if you want data and facts, you told me, here’s your data and facts, if you just want, Hey, I just I just need a number. I don’t care about the data. You’re the professional, I give you a number, right? But we’ve had some sort of conversation asking questions is huge.

Yeah, absolutely. Why? So? Because Because this is really funny. And we’ve kind of been talking about this, like, not on the show. But why? Why is it so hard for you to? Is it hard for you to want to ask that question, or is it is hard to build a habit around asking that question consistently so you’re not making assumptions?

No, I think that I just automatically my brain triggers to saying, I know what’s best, right? I know what’s best for everybody. So when you tell me, hey, Clint, I need you to I need you to bid this job. I assume everything, the way that I’m going to do it is exactly what you want. Because I’m smarter than you. It’s just not you know, it’s just it’s a natural thought process. It is it is far from being right, as far from being correct. But, you know,

But doesn’t everyone do that? I kind of think everyone does that. I think John does it, cuz you looked at all the data, and you’re like, this is this is why this is right. I think it’s right, because I think, you know, what’s the best thing for a human, you know, and whatever the issue is, and Al thinks he’s right just because Al thinks he’s right. That’s just kind of how he rolls.

No, no, no, wait a second. Al knows he’s right. There we go. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Oh, no, I was gonna say or, but but when I say that, Al knows he’s right, till he’s proven wrong. And then he accepts that and he doesn’t fight that issue. He goes, Okay, I’m the dumbest of the group. Yeah. Glad you pointed that out to me.

Oh, yeah. I don’t have that gene.

I didn’t think so.

I think that, you know, because like talking about the idea of like asking questions. There’s so much that’s put out there about, like only asking open ended questions, right. And sometimes, we put this pressure on ourselves to really qualify our questions, but also make them kind of open ended. And I kind of feel like people are aware of like the the open ended question thing. So I’ve stopped leading with them. Sorry, Nan, would you say?

No, I’m interrupting. I’m just to me, it’s very condescending. You know, you have to be really careful how you state.

It’s a good point. Because if you send me an open ended question, I immediately think you don’t know what you’re doing. Oh, so you need me to do your job. That’s where my head goes.

So what I’ve, so what I’ve started doing is like is like I’ve started making my my heavier questions, yes or no? Right. Because I can always follow up with another question, right. Hey, have you thought about this should cost? No, I haven’t. Okay. We’ll talk about that now. Yeah. What do you have in mind? Right? I can I can work my way to, to a nicer, open ended question that helps me move my process forward and stuff like this without doing the. So Al, if you were thinking about a budget for this, you know, Where, where, where do you, you know, what kind of way I think, you know,

I think, open ended. Questions was It was developed by a wuss that didn’t want to hear no, right. That’s interesting.

Well, it’s a very traditional way to get people to ask, you know, to get involved in the, in the sales process is to ask open ended questions so that you’re never at fault, right? can never be the sales guy fault. And, and to your point, Doc, like, it’s, oh, I’m scared to death for anything to be my fault. I’m not gonna take blame for anything. So I’m going to ask all these open ended questions, so that everything can never be put back on me. But that’s

Wouldn’t it be more important to go ahead. And the guy says, hell no. And you go, wow. Tell me more about why it’s a no so soon. We just sat down. Yeah, right. Or I? Sorry, john, I’m a little confused here. How did you come to the conclusion in three seconds? Why did we even get this meeting setup? Because you’re gonna go so horribly wrong.

So because you look like Glenn Bleck?


A thinner version of Glenn.

I was gonna say only uglier.

That too, but the thin is the important part, the thinner version?

We We know, we know, you’re not as smart.

Didn’t it? Hey, do I have to be?

Um, but you know, I feel like sometimes we get caught up in the moment of trying to find the perfect question. And sometimes the perfect question just doesn’t exist, right? I think I think you make your money as a salesperson, you know, of like trying to be, you know, the trusted advocate, consultant style person, by not being scared to like, ask the follow up question. I think that that’s where you get really, really good.

Because sometimes, honestly, the answer, the perfect question can be, hey, I don’t know really where we’re at right. Now. What is the perfect question that I could ask you right now? I mean, that? Absolutely. It could be that.

Guys, it can be all the above, just don’t get afraid. Don’t don’t like wet your pants when somebody gets either, you know, more aggressive than you, let them be, you know, it’s almost like, you know, you see how dogs sort of interact, right? or animals, you know, you got this dominant one, the others cower down, but they don’t leave the pack, right? They’re like, hey, there’s some value in this guy that it’ll chew some stuff up, he keeps us protected. But we have our place in this whole equation. And if your goal is to make a sale and be part of a group that’s going to continue to provide you with with sales opportunities, therefore revenue and income, why do you got to butt heads with them? If Clint wants it done that way, and it and they sign on the dotted line? I get my PO and get out of there. I’m all good with that.

I mean, yeah, no, you’re right. Cuz Think about it this way is like I’ve had a lot of people tell me Oh, if you piss that guy off, he’s so connected, right? He’s connected to all these other customers, and you’re gonna ruin all this other business. And the answer I’ve always said is, I don’t want to do business with them either. You know, if that if that’s how it’s gonna be, like, you have to have that bone to where it’s like, I don’t, this is the way I do business. You’re either on the, you know, the train with me or you’re not. And if you’re not good for you, man, I really just don’t care. I’m gonna go find people that will hop on board with the way I’m thinking. And that’s a little bit of a confident, cocky, cocky statement. However, if you don’t have any of that, if you don’t have an ounce of that in your body, right? If that’s not natural to you, if you take just a little nugget from that you may it may push you over the edge of being from kind of successful to really successful

Or not, your motivation cannot be fear, it you know, you have to be respectful. But if you’re walking around in fear going out there and fear you will fail. I mean, that’s well nobody

in a brought up a good point, yes, the fear but but imagine this, it goes back to that death of a million cuts, right? You’re just living in the wrong arena, if that’s the way you feel every time you go into one of these instead of being able to recognize that D for what he’s gonna do and his his trajectory of behavior, or an S and their trajectory of behavior, or C. So if you’ll if you’ll game up on where that is and I know we go we go back to those personality traits. But don’t don’t fear any of them right they may not be you and they may not be what you you know, the way you operate, but you can operate within whatever parameters most of the time. Now Clint brought up, okay, I’m going to head but a little bit more. Me, I’m going to probably not I’m going to go Along with people a little bit more, and go for that likability factor. And if the D likes me, great, but we have to do business in a certain way that pays out in this whole equation. So at the end of the day, I wants fairness in that, and he doesn’t want to miss out on an opportunity to make some money. But he’s got to have, you know, there’s got to be some certain criteria that’s met for me now, I’m not going to tell you that up front, the D’s gonna lay it out for me. And then I got a choice to make, because I now know what he’s is operating, you know, mode is? Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I comb through this book constantly. It’s always something that I like, I’ll go back and read because it’s a great read. It’s called “Customers for Life” by Carl Sew, Sewell. School. Great, great book, they got a bunch of dealerships you guys know. Yes. You know, Sewell’s Cadillacs man that he’s got every brand there is that guy reinvented the way a car sales and a great book, there’s a couple of quotes in there that always get my eyebrows raised. And one of them, I think he worked for, like CEO or something of Walmart at one point. But he said, give customers what they want, and you will start to see success or something to that, you know, you know, to probably take them out of context. And I always every time I get to that Reddit, I kind of cringe, I agree, but I cringe because it’s like you’re missing the whole other half of that statement is all within the bounds of what you’re willing to do. Right? What’s okay with you to do as a salesperson. So it’s not giving everybody what they want all the time, and you being on the back end, making nothing and getting screwed. It’s about giving people what they want within the bounds of what you can deal with. Right? So yeah, like, I read those quotes like that, and I see that in teachings and stuff. And I think there’s always a little bit extra that needs to go along with those phrases, right? And maybe he means that it just isn’t in the book, right? So, um, you know, and I and I say that, because we’re talking about a lot of personality stuff here, right? You can deal with people constantly. And, but at some point, don’t, don’t get outside of yourself. And don’t give up your true self being to deal with somebody else. Because you want to make a sale. That’s not good business guys. You know, like, be real, be honest.

It’s a it’s a, it’s a, it’s hard to go a long game with when that’s happening, right? You’re gonna make one sale, you’re gonna make one sale, and then you’re gonna just, you know, you’re not going to want to go by that office, you’re not going to want to be part of that organization. You’ve just got, you know, yes, yes, that’s, that’s okay. If you’re selling one item one time, but if you’re constantly going to have to do business with these people, you’re just you’re building a sales career that you’re going to hate.

Yeah, you know, it’s one thing to say it’s one thing to be the guy on the back game where everybody else is talking about you. Oh, yeah, totally raped that sales guy got everything for free off that guy cuz he made shit deal. I took advantage of him, versus being the guy that says, Oh, yeah, I took advantage of that guy. And I say, Hey, I sold you 35 projects yet, I took them for nothing. But I did 30 of them. Therefore, I made a lot of money off of you. So you know, go F yourself. So there’s different tactics there of you know, put, it’s all about what you’re willing to deal with. Right? And it’s your own self that has to be good with it. Sure. Yeah.

I so I was catching up with a, she is a leadership coach does these things. And because of COVID, you know, she, she did mostly like, like in person boot camps, and speaking on stages and stuff like this. And so she’s had a pivot her whole business because of all this, right, because no one’s doing in person events. And we were just kind of talking about some projects, you know, that she had going on. And he told me about a big one. I was like, that’s so huge. And she’s like, Yeah, but I didn’t really get it at the rate I wanted it to. And I was like, okay, and and she’s like, Well, you know, discounting is bad. And I was like, no, discounting, too, because you’re making an assumption that that’s how that that’s the only way you’re going to close the deal is bad when you’re discounting because they said, Hey, we can’t afford this, can you do less, and you come to a decision, mutually that benefits both of you, right? Because you get some business and they get, you know, some some of your expertise. That’s a win, right? As long as you’re not doing it, because you’re hoping that’s what’s going to close the deal. Like, hope is hope is not a sales strategy. So we kind of talked through that. And it was so funny, she was like, and it’s like, felt better. So much of the stuff that we that we hear, and we see and we, you know, get from our feeds, and everything is like this is like painted as like these very black or white inner situations. And there’s nothing there in the middle. And as a C, I love black and white stuff. And I’m always looking for magic bullets. And I’m looking for universal fits. Because, you know, I want I want the most efficient way to do everything. I mean, that hurt me for so long, like like trying to find the perfect question, the perfect way to respond to this and everything else like that. You know, it’s so hard to be like perfect in that moment. Right? But if you can take a lesson that you learn and improve on before you have to go through that thing again. That’s that’s the right frame for me now, right because that’ll allows me to mess up and make mistakes and you know, not beat myself to death every time I stutter or have a pause or, you know, Miss word of a question.

You know, the thing is, is, I truly believe there is no perfect question. There is just no perfect question for everybody out there. However, being perfect is asking a question. I believe that, right? Just asking something is better than asking the perfect one and getting it wrong. So just go for it.

And if you if you’re, if you’re worried about your question, creating a problem in the sales process, use a use a warm up to it, you know, I’m not sure how you’re going to take this. I, you know, have some concerns about asking you this is would be, you know, in work that before you just drop the question. Yeah. So, I mean, I understand sometimes you’re like, Oh, I feel like this might be a make or break. Well, if that is then then slow down a minute. And Clint, is it okay, I’m a little confused is okay. If I ask you a question that I may not like the answer, but I feel really compelled that I have to ask it. Well, now you’re you’re feeling kind of sorry for me, aren’t you? You know, you’re you’re probably not going to, more than usual Clint. I will I figured I might as well pick Clint. He was the candidate to try that on.

Well, I mean, you know, just just earlier this week, I had actually talked to the customer and, and said, Hey, before we you know, kind of close this deal down, you know, stuff that you talked about that you want, it actually costs a little bit more than what you’re, you’re willing to write me a contract for. I’d love to sit down and talk to you about it. But I’m not willing to take this job at that price with all the stuff that you’re you’re now wanting. And they you know, sweating bullets. It’s like, oh, man, okay, we’ll come over and let’s talk because it in their mind the deals done. But then after the deals done, they hand me all this stuff that they want on top of the bid, which that’s not fair for anybody, right? It’s fair, if if I provided you pay me, and you know that that’s where that money conversation gets really scary for a lot of people, they just back out and say, You know what, I’ll eat it, screw it. And so we went, and I was talking to talking to the guy, he’s like, Alright, so lay it out, man, what do we got? And I said, Look, it’s $2,000 for this is an extra $3200. For this. It’s an extra $3,000 for that. And he’s like, oh, okay, what else? I said, No, that’s it. He said, Oh, that’s it? And I said, Yeah, he’s like, oh, put that, you know, he looked at his secretary that, hey, put that put that shit in there. And let’s get this deal done. And he was like, that’s, that’s what we had this meeting about? Like, yeah, man, that was important to me. Right. And to him in his mind, that was nothing is peanuts. Just write it in there? Let’s get this thing done. But had you not built that up a certain way? And you just walked in there and said, I’m not signing this deal until you give me an extra $12,000? Well, that conversation goes a whole lot, a lot of different ways. Right?

Or if you just make the assumption that they’re going to be okay with $12,000 because of how far and how people are in the process.

On the flip side, you assume that you’re just gonna have to eat those costs? Because you don’t want to confront the issue. Exactly.

Right. So it goes both ways, right?

It, absolutely. And no, no risk, no reward. If you don’t, if you don’t put it out there, then you’re the sucker. You’re the guy that took the bad deal and made the bad deal. This guy was oblivious to the fact that it was turning south on him because he was at putting add ons on there until you brought it to his attention, then it was a non non event and move on.

Here’s, here’s what I here’s what I have found out, at least in my industry, and maybe it’s because the dollar values are a little bit bigger on contracts, right? That it’s easier to do, I’m willing to lose this job for $30,000. However, the guy that needs the services that can’t go forward with his project is willing to lose, not, let’s say $3 million. He’s Look, he’s wanting to earn maybe $300 million, because now his entire project, his entire building doesn’t get built, because we’re not willing to come to terms with $30,000. Right? So that’s a lot bigger deal for him, not getting the project done. But it’s an equally big deal for me to say, Hey, I can’t just eat $30,000 like, this is a big deal. Right? So you got to, you got to know that one, you got to be willing to walk away from a project to lose money on. I truly believe that if you’re going to lose money, you’re going to do this job for free. I don’t care how many bones they say they’re gonna throw to you down the road until I have contracts on all 12 of those you say I’m gonna get let’s negotiate this one, right the first time and make money on it. Look, if I make money, you make money. That’s always been the case in my business. It’s always how it goes. When I win. Right? When I lose, it’s miserable. Right? Because I don’t have the manpower. I don’t have the money. I can’t convince my accountants to go put six more people on it. We don’t do payroll. Right. So I mean, you got to be able to walk away from some what’s seem to be good deals and just don’t eat it. It’s just not fair to anybody.

Nan, I’m, I’m curious as the S personality type, you know, we’ve all kind of got our hardline stances about things that we’re going to drop and walk away from. Is that harder for you? Because the relationships involved? Or is it? Is it pretty easy for you to kind of stand your ground? Because of all the work you put into the relationship?

Well, it is just time, how much time have I invested in this in a project. And if I’ve invested a lot of time, then I’m going to really make everybody happy, you know, that to the best of my ability. Now, if I haven’t, you know, if I don’t have a really great thing going on, then it’s easy to let go even being an asset and like, I mean, bottom line, everyone has to be happy, you know, you do have to have an agreement up front, and I have to be happy. And and they have to be pleased with what is being given to them. So

Can I, can I ask you a question, Nan?

I that’s something I that’s that question. I really…

No, being sincere when I say this, that I am just what you said. You know, I respect but are you willing to take a loss up front, with the promise of more business down the road? Because you really like the person?

Oh, no,

That’s it. Nan, you know, he says, He said something that I have a question about, you talked about when you invested a lot of time…

Don’t ask it that way. John, you cannot ask her to ask her a question,

So Nan. How when when, when you hit that threshold of I’ve invested so much time I got to make this deal happen? Like, are you aware of that? Or is it just kind of one of those things that like, like, you notice afterwards, man, I made some bad decisions here, I didn’t follow my process, because I was too invested emotionally in trying to get this deal done?

Well, I think that reminds me of what Clint said. I mean, I think I didn’t say it, he actually did it. And forgive me, this is rude Clint, but the whole church thing, I think, you know, you get into it enough that you always not getting mad at me. But I think you get to a point where you’re like, Man, I’m not giving up. I have a lot invested in this. And I can see how this is gonna turn out well. If you know, I believe, I don’t know. But I think Clint doesn’t do something such as that if he feels like there’s going to be any chance of failure. I mean, you just know when you know, you know, I think i think i think i’m really intuitive to know when something’s going to bode well, and not,

I would say, and I’m, I’m probably speaking a little bit, because that because I don’t truly understand everything about an S, as you know, as you do Nan because you are one, right, so it’s hard for me to make this snap judgment. But for me, it’s easier to dump something that I don’t like, or don’t agree with, than it is an S because they’re gonna try to make it better. Right, there’s very different

or find a silver lining equation.

So that’s the that’s the split, right? And it just so happens me and Nan right now on the split screen, a zoom are on the opposite corners of my screen, right? And to go from corner to corner, that’s a very big difference, right is that I look at a failing thing. And I say, I’m out, move on to the next successful thing. Whereas I think Nan would look at that and like, Oh, I need to rehabilitate this. I want to, I want to try to grow this. And it’s, and I’m not saying you’ll do that all the time, or any of us will do that all the time. It’s just easier naturally, for me to dump it and you to want to coddle it. And, and they’re both not right. And they’re both not wrong. certain situations call for each personality, right? There’s so many situations, as a matter of fact, with with the church job that we talked about many times on this podcast, it’s finally done today. I had to channel so much interest that I didn’t even know I had to make this deal work, right? Because on paper it should have I should have hopped right around it. I should have moved on and it was a loser was gone. But knowing what I know about personalities and knowing what I know about the people behind the other side of the table, men, personalities are everything right? And we work through it.

And so glad you said that because that is a very valid and important point. It is very evident in my life that I’ve always been an S. But I’ve noticed the older I get and I’m getting up there, man. And I’m seeing D coming you know, I’m like man, I’m starting to get not as nice as I I mean, I’m not saying I’m not but I I do see me being a little more D sometimes. And what you just stated is you sometimes you know, you’re a Strong D that you know, you, you have to be cognitive of a situation and when you need to go, alright, I need to be nice. I need to be calm. I need to, you know it because if you don’t, you’re going to screw things up. I mean that it’s just in, in everything and relationships and work and basically work is relationships, right. But I mean, you, it’s super important to not just hammer into one personality and not see the validity of going into another. So anyway.

Yeah. And because, you know, naturally, I think we’re all very geared one way. But as age comes, children come situations arise, feats that you’ve overcome, or feats that you’ve lost. It does sculpt you, in a certain way to look at the next situation a little bit different. And, you know, prime example my dad, if he listens to this, he’ll, he’ll hate me for this. But I watched him and I’ll say it anyway, because I’m me.

He’s not listening dude, come on. Yeah, he.

Yeah, he probably isn’t. He probably isn’t. I’m always surprised when he calls me. He’s like, Hey, listen to your podcast. And I’m like, What are you on episode two, we’re on 75, bro, come on. But you know, I never forget this, because I never knew my dad to be sentimental. He was quite right. And it’s just like, old school guy just doesn’t say much. And it’s your rule with an iron fist. And when he said, Hey, or shut up. I mean, the whole house went silent for days, right? Because it really meant something. And that’s why silence is so golden. But I watched him. I remember he flew up to San Diego for my Marine Corps boot camp graduation. And I saw a tear like trickled down his nose. And I was like, Hey, you don’t do that. That’s not what we do. And then I look over my grandpa’s there who’s even tougher of an old man. And I watched him do the same thing. I’m like, What the hell is going on, are these emotions? Get them in check, bro. But, you know, that’s, you know, the age is starting to show that tenderness that, uh, you know, they got children, I’m proud to have had those feelings before. And it took him to you know, he was in his 50s. to, to hit that. So, you know, we’re all a little, we’re all susceptible to change at some point, whether we’d like to like it or not.

Man, let’s, let’s end on that real quick. This has been a pretty wide ranging, wide ranging episode. Clint, you have any parting words, as an as D based on the stuff we talked about tonight and nuggets from you?

Yeah, I mean, you know, guys, personalities, everything and, and I think we say this a lot, or maybe I do, but the quicker you find out what you are, you know, it’s so much easier to realize across the table. But to go a little bit further into that, you know, you really have to narrow down what you truly believe because you think or, you know, the outside part of you wants to just jump in because it’s physically appealing, or it physically feels good doesn’t necessarily match with your mental well being in the situation. So there’s a lot of emotions and stuff that you need to figure out as an adult. and stuff that you felt at 23 versus 33, or 63 aren’t always going to align. So don’t pick a hard line in the sand. And just run with that and say I am this one person because you’re not, you can be so many different people in so many different situations. So, you know, to me, personality is everything, learn it, school yourself and get a college get a PhD in personality training man because it’s worth every penny.

Al, what’cha got?

I’m gonna jump back to our resume, original topic or supposition was, you know, likeability and if it is easy enough and direct enough to just show up and be consistent about showing up well if that improves your likability, then anybody can do that.

Nan, What you got?

To not think there’s a perfect question perfect personality. And I think it’s from what everyone was said, I think your emotions are should be in check. There, you know, there’s no perfect emotion there. You know, who’s to say you shouldn’t cry, you should cry or whatever. There’s no perfect emotion. Just figure out what the best way to handle every situation is. That’s really broad, but I think it kind of goes with what we’ve just spoken about.

Um, all right. So for the C’s out there, you know, I’ve spent a lot of time trying to be likable through other people’s lenses, right, whenever, whenever I was working with Al and Nan and I would be in the halls, you know, because like, because like that was the thing. You know, Al always told me like, hey, just just be a fixture in the back halls of these things be a fixture in the office and eventually, right when you put in enough time and you’re yourself. And and it was funny because whenever al and I were talking about working together, he was like, Man, you have some really cool things that make you unique. That’ll make you Easier to have conversations with these people. And I was like, okay, but there’s a certain amount of time I think you have to put in to build the confidence. So that way you can be your authentic self in any circle you want. And I, I was not trying to be myself in that role, right for, you know, a couple of reasons, right, I was way younger, I hadn’t done any of this training. I didn’t know myself, but but but also, I kind of felt like there’s not, there’s not very many people for me to call on, I can’t, I can’t blow any of these, you know, conversations. And so, but I looking back on that now, if I had just been the most authentic version of myself, right, might not have gotten any more doors open. But I would have felt better at the end of the day, as opposed to feeling like I’m one person, as a salesperson. And one person is, you know, a dad, a partner, you know, all these things that you know, that I do. So, you know, it’s worth putting in the time, so that way you can be yourself. And I think a lot of that starts with being self aware, it’s not enough that you can point out somebody else’s D-ness or I-ness or, you know, whatever it is, you have to know, how is that person going to view the things that I want to talk about from their lens, right? And that only happens when you spend enough time to really understand how you come across to the other four corners. So

Yeah, I like it. Hey John, I’m gonna add to that, because I think C’s of all people on this on the personality spectrum struggle with that likability the most because it’s, it’s not the people that are very social and out there. And I will tell you this every person that I know that’s like yourself, that’s very data facts, you know, kind of, I don’t really not not sociable, I don’t want to go out and have drinks. I’d rather go home and let’s just say play my Xbox till three in the morning, right? Because it’s just to my introverts, right? I like you for that. I love you for that. I don’t like you, when you step out of that bounds and try to be me. I don’t need another me. I am me. Right? I want some diversity. Everybody does, right. I want to build. That’s why this works. So well. The D, I, S, and C that sitting on this podcast, we can go out and have a great time. And we’re all completely different with different views. But it works because we’re diverse, and diverse is interesting. Being the same is not.

Absolutely, well. Good job. So guys, if you are in sales, and you know somebody else who is in sales and you and and they’re struggling with, with everything that’s going on right now, some of these budgets are smaller, it’s more difficult to get into offices, it we’re coming up on fourth quarter, which is I mean, we’re in fourth quarter, so we’re in the last sprint of the year, and a lot of people are going to be out and everything else like this, now’s not the time to take your foot off the gas, right, the consistent effort and your intention around how you’re networking and prospecting and selling is going to carry your momentum into January and stuff like that. So make sure that you’re not taking your foot off the gas just because it’s hard. It’s always hard, there is no easy button. The consistency makes it easier when you do a bunch of it is the thing that that I have had to learn for myself. So be consistent. If you know someone who’s struggling ┬áplease share this with him. If you get stuck on it on a call in a on a sales call. And you want to have us break it down and poke holes in it because you know, we gladly will send us a text 817-345-7449 we’ll talk about it here on the show. We’ll try to give you some feedback and hopefully something that will help you in that moment.

And not and and and if you’re scared of putting it on the show, don’t worry just text us and we’ll deal with you individually too. Absolutely I won’t I will be more than happy to call you individually if you if you resonate with me. I will call you right now. Absolutely.

So yeah, if you’re watching this on YouTube, please like and subscribe. Share this with somebody else. If you are listening to this audio, please leave us a review. It’s one of the best things you can do to help promote the show and we would appreciate it a lot. And we will see everybody next week. Thanks a lot.